Adding fuel to the fire, Summoner's future

[BloodPact]

To put it another way I believe that we should have more focus on the summoning/pet aspect of a Summoner than on our DOTs, considering summoners use most of their power in summoning and controlling an eidolon in other games, I'd still like to see the player himself fight, yet at the same time have some more of our overall power be directed towards our summons. They ARE called summoners after all, not "Miasma Poison DOT Master"

That's not going to happen because Summoner like any of the other jobs is an expansion of a base class. By rule, a job acquires all of the abilities from the class it comes from and so Summoner must have everything that Arcanist has.

I think pet classes are really well made in this game. Instead of shifting your entire arsenal to a pet, they complement you, they work together with you to maximize damage (Contagion on your DoTs) in some cases, though this could be expanded a bit more for deeper connection to your egi.

I was also main SMN in FFXI, but that's a different battle system, with a more slower pace and even there Summoner was low tier. In fact, without an avatar out a Summoner was literally a level 37 White Mage with a huge MP pool. I stopped playing not long after the release of Winds of The Goddess, and I can count easily the number of times I was allowed to come Summoner to events, because that was never. I was second job Red Mage and that was timewise my main because no one wanted a Summoner.

Putting more focus on the egi is not beneficial to our job, it's detrimental. If our egi gets KOed in a fight, you can refresh DoTs and still deal some damage while you resummon. What happens if the DoTs or the equivalent main source of damage was shifted to the egi? The egi is KOed and our damage is basically 0 for the entire remainder of the time it takes us to summon it, and if we were to still deal on DoTs you'd have to start setting them up once resummoned.

As for visual appearance then maybe when the add ons thing is released they'll let those who want to change pet appearance go ahead and mod away. For those who are into the lore and story of this game, the form and size of the egi will make perfect sense. They are a small portion of aetherial energy from one of the Primals that you as a single person have managed to bind and form into the visual "spirit" you see in front of you. Primals come from the same source but are a total different deal, the most important from this comparison is their size and appearance being much bigger and detailed because of the exorbitant amount of energy they used to take on their physical appearance.

[Akiza]

If the Pet provides the main source of damage there while the Summoner provides support Dot then we have a higher up time the we do know. Now when the Summoner dies Dots fall off and the Pet disappears bringing our damage to zero while if the main source of damage comes from the Pet while the Summoner provides support damage, buffs and Pet skill rotations then if the Pet dies Summoner's can still let the dots tick while Re Summoning the Pet or swiftcast Summon if its up.

As for the visual appearance of the Pets everyone will jump at the chance to change there Pets appearance I would imagine modders will be able to make money off of players that want to change the Egis appearance so why doesn't square just change the appearance of the Egi and be done with it.

[Dwill]

If the Pet provides the main source of damage there while the Summoner provides support Dot then we have a higher up time the we do know. Now when the Summoner dies Dots fall off and the Pet disappears bringing our damage to zero while if the main source of damage comes from the Pet while the Summoner provides support damage, buffs and Pet skill rotations then if the Pet dies Summoner's can still let the dots tick while Re Summoning the Pet or swiftcast Summon if its up.

As for the visual appearance of the Pets everyone will jump at the chance to change there Pets appearance I would imagine modders will be able to make money off of players that want to change the Egis appearance so why doesn't square just change the appearance of the Egi and be done with it.

Class balance should never be made in consideration that the player is terrible. Also, your uptime should be close to 100% as of now. If it isn't, it's a PEBKAC issue.

Any addons that charge money to be used in any MMO will received a Ceise and Desist letter from the company (as Blizzard has done a few times in the past). Also, modification of appearance is altering the game files which is a swift road to the ban hammer.

[Akiza]

Class balance should never be made in consideration that the player is terrible. Also, your uptime should be close to 100% as of now. If it isn't, it's a PEBKAC issue.

Making the Summoner a Pet based job would mean that players would have to be good because a Pet Based job requires a lot more player skill then a Dot based job. As for terrible players the Dot Based Summoner we have know is designed for ease of use since any player that can maintain dots and Aetherflow which is easy can have high dps.

Q22: Currently, the summoner job is a DoT-focused job, but I want them to be more of a pet-focused job. Are there any plans to change the design of the summoner job?

A22: Controlling the pet would require a lot of player skill so it might be hard to find a good overall balance.

[Estevo]

I gotta stop replying to these long posts, but oh well I enjoy it.

That's not going to happen because Summoner like any of the other jobs is an expansion of a base class.

The class/job system is going to be tweaked/reworked/whatever, so let's not assume quite yet.

I think pet classes are really well made in this game. Instead of shifting your entire arsenal to a pet, they complement you

I like the Summoner too, but I believe the pet system leaves much to be desired. I believe that a shift to you complementing your Pet could be an engaging Summoner direction.

in some cases, though this could be expanded a bit more for deeper connection to your egi.

I'm totally for this, so I'll agree with you on this one.

I was also main SMN in FFXI

This is FF14, they are, or at least CAN be different.

Putting more focus on the egi is not beneficial to our job, it's detrimental. If our egi gets KOed in a fight, you can refresh DoTs and still deal some damage while you resummon. What happens if the DoTs or the equivalent main source of damage was shifted to the egi?

If our playstyle shifted to complementing our Egi, this wouldn't matter, since we could support our Egi so he wouldn't die as easily, of course both you and your Egi should be crucial and alive, but that's what would add to the uniqueness of the Summoner!

As for visual appearance then maybe when the add ons thing is released they'll let those who want to change pet appearance go ahead and mod away. For those who are into the lore and story of this game, the form and size of the egi will make perfect sense. Primals come from the same source but are a total different deal, the most important from this comparison is their size and appearance being much bigger and detailed because of the exorbitant amount of energy they used to take on their physical appearance.

Modding is a cheap excuse to not do anything about it, and honestly the only games that I approve of being modded to that extent are GTA and Minecraft, both of which aren't overly creative to begin with. The size is irrelevant, however the form does NOT make perfect sense. As I said in an earlier post, the Egi's are more like elementals than primals, with how simple their design is (Ifrit's design is nice, although he could use some more character as well.) I mean Garuda looks like a Plastic green bird, and Titan looks like a POTATO with a mustache! Not only that, but it's not simple to create an Egi, and not everybody can do it, so it's not a TOTALLY different deal, it requires a lot of power to create/summon them.

[MartaDemireux]

I have an idea I'm working on for Egi rebalancing (to include the 3 new ones) as well as a stance that simply alters gameplay (instead of focusing on DoT's and having aid from a DPS pet you can rotate Egi's in a specific order to maintain Enkindle usage to play similarly to oldschool SMNs). Still tinkering with it but it's essentially this:

This idea was imagined with the potential onset of a hybrid role system as hinted at by the developers and with current knowledge of an increased level cap and addition of new Egis with the 3.0 expansion. SMN would be reclassified as a hybrid role in this case focusing on DPS with the ability to add support to the team. Some of the current Egi's see some ability changes. The reasoning behind this is that with the onset of 6 total Egi's each one will need to have their own niche to fit or else the current trend of just using one of them will continue.

In addition to this idea SMN will gain a stance, Astral Flow, which will lower casting times for all "Summon" abilities (I'm thinking to around 2 or 3s), reduce MP costs of Summon I-VI, reduce the Summoner's DPS while increasing the Egi's DPS and allow you to combo your summons.

This stance is primarily to give players a play-style option. Without the stance up SMN will play like the current FFXIV SMN model using DoTs and Fester for the bulk of damage and using the appropriate pet as the situation demands. With Astral Flow up it will play like the classic FF SMN model calling out all of their pets for burst AoE damage and supporting their pet's damage with their DoTs. The DPS of both play-styles will be similar but the Astral Flow style will likely be a bit weaker to account for the support it adds and its large focus on AoE damage. This weakness is found mostly in the fact that Aetherflow charges will be used on Energy Drain instead of Fester to sustain the rotation and there will likely be times where DoT's fall off.

The combo system works in that summoning an Egi while another one is present will reduce the recast/cooldown of Enkindle in order to get more uses of it (I'm thinking to around 10s or so). They will only be boosted as dictated by the current elemental wheel as found in game:

"The spark of Lightning ignites when it strikes, and thus Fire is born."
-If Summon III is used while Ramuh is active Enkindle's recast/cooldown is reduced.

"The heat of Fire renders to ash all that it touches, and thus Earth is born."
-If Summon II is used while Ifrit is active Enkindle's recast/cooldown is reduced.

"The density of Earth shuns sun and harbors cold, and thus Ice is born."
-If Summon VI is used while Titan is active Enkindle's recast/cooldown is reduced.

"The armor of Ice melts away, and thus Water is born."
-If Summon IV is used while Shiva is active Enkindle's recast/cooldown is reduced.

"The moistness of Water mists and rises, and thus Wind is born."
-If Summon is used while Leviathan is active Enkindle's recast/cooldown is reduced.

"The gusts and sighs of Wind gather the clouds, and thus Lightning is born."
-If Summon V is used while Garuda is active Enkindle's recast/cooldown is reduced.

Abilities:
Potencies left out due to future rebalancing of current Egi's.
* Denotes Enkindle.

4: Summon: Summons a caster-type pet to fight by your side.
4: Windblade: Deals wind damage with a potency of X. Recast: 3s.
4: Shockwave: Deals wind damage with a potency of X. Additional Effect: 15-yalm knockback. Recast: 90s.
20: Aerial Slash: Deals wind damage with a potency of X to target and all enemies nearby it. Recast: 30s.
40: Contagion: Extends duration of damage over time effects already cast by master by Xs. Recast: 60s.
*50: Aerial Blast: Deals wind damage with a potency of X to target and all enemies nearby it. Astral Flow: Recast: 300.

Garuda: Largely unchanged. This the go-to pet for sustained DPS when a fight will be long or MP intensive or when there will be a lot of target switching as she is a ranged unit. Astral Flow: Primarily used to extend your DoT's so you have more time for summoning and will otherwise be used for AoE damage.

15: Summon II: Summons a tank-type pet to fight at your side (Titan). Melee.
15: Rock Buster: Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Additional Effect: Increased enmity. Recast: 3s.
15: Mountain Buster: Delivers an attack with a potency of X to all nearby enemies. Additional Effect: Increased enmity. Recast: 15s.
20: Earthen Ward: Decreases damage suffered by pet by 20% for 20s. Recast: 120s.
40: Landslide: Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Additional Effect: Pacification for Xs. Recast: 40s.
*50: Earthen Fury: Deals earth damage with a potency of X to all nearby targets. Additional Effect: Razed earth for 15s. Recast: 300s.

Titan: Largely unchanged. This still functions as your solo tanking pet. Astral Flow: Used for AoE damage.

30: Summon III: Summons an attacker-type pet to fight at your side (Ifrit). Melee.
30: Burning Strike: Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Recast: 3s.
30: Crimson Cyclone: Delivers an attack with a potency of X to all nearby enemies. Recast: 30s.
30: Crimson Howl: Increases potencies and reduces duration of damage over time effects already cast by master by Xs. Recast: 60s.
40: Flaming Crush: Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Additional Effect: Fire damage with a potency of X for Xs. Recast: 90s.
*50: Inferno: Deals fire damage with a potency of X to all enemies in a cone before it. Additional Effect: Fire damage over time with potency of X for 15s. Recast: 300s.

Ifrit: Several changes. This is now the go-to pet for burst DPS when a fight will be short or will have little worry for MP. Astral Flow: Primarily used to apply 2 quick DoTs, one of which AoE.

55: Summon IV: Summons a healer-type pet to fight at your side (Leviathan). Ranged.
55: Spinning Dive: Delivers a ranged attack with a potency of X. Additional Effect: A water ball drops on and heals the party member with the lowest HP for X potency. Recast: 3s.
55: Spring Water: Heals party member with lowest HP for X potency. If target is raised to 100% HP the excess healing is given to the next party member with the lowest HP. The process continues up to a maximum of one half of the current party's size. A single party member can only be healed by it once per use. Recast: 30s.
55: Water Spout: Creates a geyser under Leviathan for Xs which heals all who enter with a potency of X every tick. Recast: 60s.
55: Tidal Roar: Increases HP restored by spells or actions by X% on nearby party members for Xs. Recast: 120s.
*55: Tidal Wave: Deals water damage with a potency of X to all enemies in a cone before it. Additional Effect: Party members within 5y of targets that receive damage from this attack will be healed with a potency of X. Recast: 300s.

Leviathan: New addition. This will be the Summoner's healing pet. Overall DPS will see about a 20% loss due to having only one attack. Primarily used when a healer goes down or runs out of MP or other emergency support situations. Astral Flow: Used for AoE DPS and an AoE heal.

60: Summon V: Summons a caster support-type pet to fight at your side (Ramuh). Ranged.
60: Shock Strike: Deals lightning damage with a potency of X. Recast: 3s.
60: Thunderstorm: Deals lightning damage with a potency of X to enemies within Xy of Ramuh. Additional Effect: Stun for Xs. Recast: 30s.
60: Thunderbolt: Deals lightning damage with a potency of X. Additional Effect: Stun for Xs. Recast: 10s.
60: Chaotic Strike: Deals lightning damage with a potency of X. Additional Effect: Terror for Xs. Recast: 120s.
*60: Judgment Bolt: Deals lightning damage to enemies within Xy of Ramuh. Additional Effect: Paralyze for Xs. Recast: 300s.

Ramuh: New addition. This will be the Summoner's enemy-focused support pet. Primarily used for stun duty to alleviate the need for PLDs. Astral Flow: Used for AoE DPS and paralysis.

65: Summon VI: Summons an attacking support-type pet to fight at your side (Shiva). Melee.
65: Axe Kick: Delivers an attack with a potency of X. Recast: 3s.
65: Frost Armor: Creates a barrier around the party member with the lowest HP% that prevents damage of all sources totaling X% of target's maximum HP for Xs. Recast: 30s.
65: Mesmerize: Puts target and enemies within 5y to sleep for Xs. Cancels auto-attack upon execution. Recast: 20s.
65: Diamond Storm: Creates a designated area around Shiva in which party members will only suffer X% of all damage inflicted for Xs. Additional Effect: Deals Ice damage with a potency of X to enemies within the designated area. Recast: 120s.
*65: Diamond Dust: Deals ice damage to enemy and nearby targets. Additional Effect: Creates a barrier around party members within Xy of enemies damaged by this ability that prevents physical damage totaling X% of target's maximum HP for Xs. Recast: 300s.

Shiva: New addition. This will be the Summoner's party-focused support pet. Primarily used for her shield effects akin to SCH. Astral Flow: Used for AoE DPS and a shield effect.

70: Astral Flow: Summon I-VI MP costs are reduced by X% and casting times are reduced to Xs. Summoner damage dealt is reduced by X% and pet damage dealt is increased by X%. Each summon using the elemental wheel order Fire>Earth>Ice>Water>Wind>Lightning>Fire will reduce the recast/cooldown of Enkindle to Xs. Effect ends upon re-use. MP Cost: X.

Astral Flow rotation will look something like this although you can start with any Egi: Dot's > Garuda > Contagion > Aerial Blast > Ramuh > Judgement Bolt > Ifrit > Flaming Crush > Inferno > Titan > Landslide > Earthen Fury > Shiva > Diamond Storm > Diamond Dust > Leviathan > heals/buffs as needed > Tidal Wave. Rouse/Spur/Fester to be used whenever they're up. DoT's re-applied as they fall off preferably during an Enkindle animation. Aetherflow charges will likely be spent on Energy Drain instead of Fester to facilitate Enkindles.

[skaterger]

Smn is fine the way it is.

[Jandor]

I've suggest in a few Summoner threads that the while the way it plays at the moment is fine I'd like to see Summoner burst damage reworked so that it comes from the pet.
Enkindle reworked to be more impressive but locking the pet away for the enkindle cooldown, Fester maybe reworked so the pet is ordered to consume the DoTs you've placed on an enemy for instant damage.
Mostly flavor changes to be honest that wouldn't result in much change in overall DPS, although with SMN in the good spot it is at the moment any changes at all would have to be handled very carefully.

I hope to see some interesting changes in the expansion .

[NargaHuntress]

"Miasma Poison DOT Master"

That would be a cool but funny title for SMN!

[Judge_Xero]

I like SMN the way it is. All I could ask for is a different proc system. Spell Speed is useless for SMN and Pet.
I'd be happy if Enhanced Pet let you instant cast Shadow Flare or something like that.