Holy trinity.. Or maybe not.

[Immut]

The fact that people were even willing to do this as more than a joke is telling of far deeper gameplay issues. Right now, tanks are not only undesiriable to play, they're undesirable to HAVE. Nobody wants a tank! We'd rather have another DPS, or even another healer. But not a tank.

I think to make tanking fun AND to make more interesting fights in the future, tanks need to have stats closer to melee dps. Right now, boss attacks and adds are finely divided into "You need to tank this because it will kill everyone else in five seconds" and "You don't need to tank this because the damage it does is a joke and you can probably second wind it off". I don't like it.


The core reason people complain about fights that require two tanks is because tanks, right now, don't contribute anything outside of being something for the boss to hit, and that needs to change. Hell the final boss of Stone Vigil HM is pretty much proof that the entire tank role is holding the game BACK.

I actually think Frontlines is the most fun a tank can have. You're ACTIVELY defending people by boosting their defense or debuffing the enemy's damage or immobilizing them, while at the same time being an unkillable pain in the ass. You can also do this to a limited degree with the Steropes fate by holmganging him when he goes berserk (In theory. I didn't try it. But you SHOULD be able to, because it's awesome). This is the kind of stuff tanks need to be doing more of to justify ever having more than one of them, or even one at all. And fights and stats need to be balanced to REQUIRE it. If Testudo was a PvE skill you can be sure a PLD offtank would be a lot more desirable than it is.

[Tiggy]

Does anyone else find it odd that Ramuh is now actually easier to do if you kick the tanks to the curb?

Titan-Egi is still a tank. The holy trinity stood regardless if it was a player or not.

The fact that people were even willing to do this as more than a joke is telling of far deeper gameplay issues. Right now, tanks are not only undesiriable to play, they're undesirable to HAVE. Nobody wants a tank! We'd rather have another DPS, or even another healer. But not a tank.

God forbid someone take that 5k damage hit that would one shot every other player. Yeah, we don't need players like that. -_-
Of course people would take more dps if they could, but It doesn't mean you'll survive the fight. The monsters hit very hard and you need someone to take that hit and to hold monsters in one place to make dps positional requirements easy to meet. On those point alone it is very desirable to have tanks. Period. Even Titan-Egi was a tank in the Ramuh situation. Without the tank you're all going to die.

[JTribal]

The core reason people complain about fights that require two tanks is because tanks, right now, don't contribute anything outside of being something for the boss to hit, and that needs to change. Hell the final boss of Stone Vigil HM is pretty much proof that the entire tank role is holding the game BACK.

Well, the purpose of a tank is to tank sooo....

Also, not too sure you are aware of this but each tank class has a tank "stance" that can be turned on or off, so tanks that know what they are doing are able to switch that stance appropriately in the fights where they are swapping. Sure, this is never going to push out as much dps as an actual dps class but what would be the point of a high dps tank class? Then you would see an extreme over abundance of people playing that class, because it would pretty much eleminate the need for real dps classes that do not have a huge pool of hp and defense.

[Immut]

God forbid someone take that 5k damage hit that would one shot every other player. Yeah, we don't need players like that. -_-
Of course people would take more dps if they could, but It doesn't mean you'll survive the fight. The monsters hit very hard and you need someone to take that hit and to hold monsters in one place to make dps positional requirements easy to meet. On those point alone it is very desirable to have tanks. Period. Even Titan-Egi was a tank in the Ramuh situation. Without the tank you're all going to die.

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

Well, the purpose of a tank is to tank sooo....

Also, not too sure you are aware of this but each tank class has a tank "stance" that can be turned on or off, so tanks that know what they are doing are able to switch that stance appropriately in the fights where they are swapping. Sure, this is never going to push out as much dps as an actual dps class but what would be the point of a high dps tank class? Then you would see an extreme over abundance of people playing that class, because it would pretty much eleminate the need for real dps classes that do not have a huge pool of hp and defense.

Seriously, I don't get how people can completely miss the scale of the post like this.

You can already substitute a highly geared warrior for DPS in most content. People don't do it because the survivability of your DPS doesn't actually matter. They aren't expected to get hit by anything that actually does damage. With the current game design, the only difference between a dps class and a tank class is the sliding scale of defense vs damage and the ability to generate enmity. There is more difference in gameplay between a ranged dps and a melee dps than there is between a melee dps and a tank.

Imagine Testudo was a PvE skill, and then imagine a fight with many adds. Strong ones that don't die in two hits and too many of them for two tanks to reasonably handle. The PLD uses Testudo on the Dragoon, their survivability goes up dramatically and they're able to tank an add or two themselves. That adds dynamism to the roles. It also gives PLD a reason to show up, even if they're not tanking the boss, because it would enhance the survivability of the entire party for each successive tank, and it makes armor and HP actually matter for classes that aren't explicitly tanks.

The fact that each role in this game is so pigeonholed is the reason why fights need to be so mechanical and gimmicky.

[JTribal]

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

Because you're wrong.

[Codek]

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

Trying to break away from the Holy Trinity has been tried and failed before numerous times. the latest being GW2 where the majority of encounters simple became a giant game of dodge all the mechanics.

Note: going to use dealing damage as an example of an added ability to tanking

A tank needs to take the hits at the cost of dealing damage. If a tank can deal a worthwhile amount of damage, then the meta would be to have all tanky dps. Now that everyone can take the hits, the point of tanking becomes trivial and it's now just a game where everyone tries to survive.

Strategy gets tossed to the wind when the status que is changed...

You just can't make tanks be more then what they are, something to strategically take the hits for others to survive.

[Tiggy]

Why is it any time I suggest changing the status quo someone has to tell me I'm wrong because of the status quo? I'm talking about radically changing the design of the game.

Because your suggestion is terrible with serious repercussions in the way fights are handled. The status quo exists for a reason. Tanks give players the ability to control the fight and the means to develop and execute specific strategies. Simply put it's because it works. Without that tool fights would turn into nothing more than zergs which would be a chaotic and stupid way to handle end game fights.

If you like zerging so much then go fight fates. Serious battles are not zerg fests, and should not be zerg fests. They involve planning, strategy, and execution. Removing the primary linchpin of the process would be a bad move. Homogenizing the tank and dps into one class makes the game more boring because everyone is the same.

[Immut]

If you like zerging so much then go fight fates. Serious battles are not zerg fests, and should not be zerg fests. They involve planning, strategy, and execution. Removing the primary linchpin of the process would be a bad move. Homogenizing the tank and dps into one class makes the game more boring because everyone is the same.

Ok first off, I never said to do that. I said to blur the lines and make tanks more teamwork-oriented instead of being totally self serving.

Second, if the game were entirely Conjurers and Lancers with all their AAs, not only would it be a better game, but the only thing you would need to change about any given fight are the numbers involved. That's how badly tanks are designed right now.

Edit: I say conjurer and lancer because that's what we had in beta phase 1. But arcanist and marauder would be way more fun.

[Tiggy]

Ok first off, I never said to do that. I said to blur the lines and make tanks more teamwork-oriented instead of being totally self serving.

You mean like working together with a second tank to swap and handle extra adds? Woah, dat teamwork! You don't seem to have a very good idea of how much teamwork I have to do on many fights. I constantly work with the other tank to make fights go smooth. Sure it's not in all fights because honestly sometimes it's nice to have a fight that's a little more simple than the others but it is there in many battles. If that isn't teamwork to you then you might need to look up the definition of the word.

Second, if the game were entirely Conjurers and Lancers with all their AAs, not only would it be a better game, but the only thing you would need to change about any given fight are the numbers involved. That's how badly tanks are designed right now.

That's entirely subjective and you are allowed to have that opinion. I personally think that would be a bad game, boring, and would be worse than what we have. You clearly want zergs. Go do fates.

[Sapphic]

I remember when the "holy Trinity" was tank, healer, mezzer (crowd control). DPS wasnt part of it, but a given.