Tam-Tara Deepcroft and Edda

[Phyllo]

now that you say it, i had a different memory of it x)

[Wolfandre]

How can you definitively say that the Voidsent we fight isn't, in some part, Avere reborn: Void Style? To be honest, we don't truly what happens after a character dies. Do we truly go to Nald'Thal? For all we know our souls could just be pulled into the Void. I agree it most likely isn't THE Avere but I think it's possible that some part of him could be in there, albeit corrupted by her necromantic experiments.

It is actually said in the Main scenario that, when a physical body dies, the soul, a life-giving aspect of aether, diffuses and returns to the aether. Few and far-between are the times that a soul does not, and there are only two instances that I can think of: souls that have prolonged attachment to Hydaelyn (Undead), and Immortals (beings such as the Ascians).

In the case of the latter, a Crystal of Darkness is required to prevent the soul from dispersing and shoves it into a nearby, weak-willed vessel. Should no such vessel be present, the soul is transferred into the Void until such a time where a body can be found.

In the case of the former, it usually just takes the destruction of the second body in order to disperse the aether.

This story could have gone either way. Edda's attachment for Avere could have potentially kept his soul around, hence why she needed bodies. However, we are told that his soul is missing, so Edda is not attached to Avere, but moreso the idea of Avere. Someone strong and brave. Someone with morals and someone famous. Someone like...you, the player character.

I have a feeling that she just wanted someone to fill the vacuum left when Avere died, someone she deeply adored because of his turn-around after meeting you. It's also why she contributes so much to you and practically worships you. By getting you, she'd also get Avere and the feeling she got around Avere.

It is due to that attachment that she was able to contact this magic, whether she intentionally opened a Voidgate and let a whole bunch of Voidsent in (as seen as monsters in the dungeon) or she tapped into some as-yet unseen magic source, such as Necromancy.

There is the distinct possibility that a Crystal of Darkness could have been nearby in the Deepcroft, considering the Lambs of Dalamud had previously taken residence there in order to summon Galvanth the Dominator. This possibility leaves Avere up to the same immortal fate as the Sahagin priest and the Ascians. However, you likely have to do this sort of thing intentionally, as the Ascians were mages that made deals with Voidsent to obtain this knowledge and use it and the Sahagin priest learned this from the Ascians. So I'm betting that Avere's soul returned to the aether and Edda tried building a new Avere using your soul.

[Tenkuu]

From the point of view of a manipulative voidsent trying to get a poor girl weighed down by loss and a guilty conscience, you don't have to worry about aptitude. Seems to be that deals with the void aren't the hard part you just need the right way in. Perceived flaws or failings seem common. (Guilt for Edda, Vanity for Amadine, Proof of Worth for Thancred and his Ascian problem, not the same, but similar) As for follow-through, making her believe that Avere would come back if she just followed these steps. Lead her gently down the slippery slope under the guise of a "miracle", slowly warp her perceptions of right and wrong.

Sorry to slightly necro this, but... I'm so glad you brought up Thancred and Lahabrea. Thancred's situation was the perfect example of good intentions gone horribly wrong, while at the same time being the only example of someone we actually saved from involvement with voidsent. I guess Ascians can technically be referred to as Voidsent, right?

[CyberForte]

Sorry to slightly necro this, but... I'm so glad you brought up Thancred and Lahabrea. Thancred's situation was the perfect example of good intentions gone horribly wrong, while at the same time being the only example of someone we actually saved from involvement with voidsent. I guess Ascians can technically be referred to as voidsent, right?

Necromancy seems appropriate in this particular thread. =P

But I don't think we can technically refer to the Ascians as anything except semi-immortal aetherial beings at this point. They're willing to draw on the void or prompt others to--Amandine being the prime example here--but unless there's some lore bit I'm missing, we have no confirmation that they themselves have any specific relationship to it, much less that they're from it. Indeed, the dialog before fighting Ascian Prime in Aetherochemical Research Facility suggests that they were more likely echo-users originally who learned to transcend their mortality through it, considering they seem to be functionally identical to the Sahagain priest who survived using the Echo, even down to the detail of being consumed by a primal.

More on topic, I personally would be more wont to suspect Ascian involvement in Edda's descent into madness. They have been known to lead others into voidsent territory, as demonstrated by Amandine, and it would make more sense for an Ascian to have manipulated her than a voidsent given that, unlikely Amandine or Cocobusi (from Thaurmaturge quests) she was never possessed herself. Most of those who make such details end up possessed by/becoming Voidsent, but an Ascian could much more easily appear benevolent while leading her down the path to ruin. Indeed, suggesting that she could achieve what she wanted--Avere's ressurection--by such dark means has a lot of the hallmarks of Ascian involvement, if we consider the story of Bahamut's creation as a primal, or the way that Lahabrea tempted the Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr. You could even make an argument that Lahabrea or one of his disciples did it particularly to hurt us, revenge for defeating him at Praetorium.

[PArcher]

More on topic, I personally would be more wont to suspect Ascian involvement in Edda's descent into madness. They have been known to lead others into voidsent territory, as demonstrated by Amandine, and it would make more sense for an Ascian to have manipulated her than a voidsent given that, unlikely Amandine or Cocobusi (from Thaurmaturge quests) she was never possessed herself. Most of those who make such details end up possessed by/becoming Voidsent, but an Ascian could much more easily appear benevolent while leading her down the path to ruin. Indeed, suggesting that she could achieve what she wanted--Avere's ressurection--by such dark means has a lot of the hallmarks of Ascian involvement, if we consider the story of Bahamut's creation as a primal, or the way that Lahabrea tempted the Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr. You could even make an argument that Lahabrea or one of his disciples did it particularly to hurt us, revenge for defeating him at Praetorium.

My only issue with this theory is, what have they to gain? Sure, "Kill the WoL" is always there, but the Ascians don't seem to do anything just because, or if failure is certain; there's always some deep purpose (and high chance of success) to it. Edda wasn't exactly a powerful conjurer in the first place, and there's only so much a voidsent can do to enhance your power (especially if you don't have much to begin with), so if there was Ascian involvement, I would take it as a "nothing better to do" or "What-if?" side-project rather than anything that would actually lead to something.

I'm a fan of her coming across a Voidsent that was more than happy to help her "resurrect" her love.

[Tenkuu]

But I don't think we can technically refer to the Ascians as anything except semi-immortal aetherial beings at this point. They're willing to draw on the void or prompt others to--Amandine being the prime example here--but unless there's some lore bit I'm missing, we have no confirmation that they themselves have any specific relationship to it, much less that they're from it. Indeed, the dialog before fighting Ascian Prime in Aetherochemical Research Facility suggests that they were more likely echo-users originally who learned to transcend their mortality through it, considering they seem to be functionally identical to the Sahagain priest who survived using the Echo, even down to the detail of being consumed by a primal.

Well, I don't know exactly what it means, but what stands out to me is the fact that Nabriales called both Lahabrea and Elidibus as being the only two Ascians to be "of this world". Is this implied to mean that they are the only ones who started out as mortals or something else entirely? Also, there is the fact that their abilities seem to mimic what Voidsent such as Ahriman and their relatives can do. You could argue that it's Black Mages taken to the extreme, but even the Black Mages we know (and even ourselves if we take up Black Mage as a job) are not that powerful, and either way, the Black Mages draw their abilities from the Void, right?

More on topic, I personally would be more wont to suspect Ascian involvement in Edda's descent into madness. They have been known to lead others into voidsent territory, as demonstrated by Amandine, and it would make more sense for an Ascian to have manipulated her than a voidsent given that, unlikely Amandine or Cocobusi (from Thaurmaturge quests) she was never possessed herself. Most of those who make such details end up possessed by/becoming Voidsent, but an Ascian could much more easily appear benevolent while leading her down the path to ruin. Indeed, suggesting that she could achieve what she wanted--Avere's ressurection--by such dark means has a lot of the hallmarks of Ascian involvement, if we consider the story of Bahamut's creation as a primal, or the way that Lahabrea tempted the Ala Mhigans to summon Rhalgr. You could even make an argument that Lahabrea or one of his disciples did it particularly to hurt us, revenge for defeating him at Praetorium.

I would be very tempted to agree with you there, except that unlike with Lady Amandine, Thancred and the Summoner quests in general, not a single Ascian shows up to either taunt you, challenge you or rail at you, nor is Edda's ordeal ever brought up as a victory of theirs even in another conversation with an Ascian. There is also the fact that given Edda's fairly detailed journal entries, we are given to believe that she took the initiative for the Avere project all on her own, as no mention is ever made by her of any strange black-cloaked men approaching her and making promises to her. Also, no offense to Edda, but she's probably far too small-time for the Ascians, not to mention that she was supposedly terrible at magic.

[Dualblade]

snip

Just for the last point, but for someone that was supposedly terrible at magic, she certainly seemed to pull off some powerful magic during the battle against Averman. Of course this could just be that her decsent into insanity coincided with her really beefing up her magic training.

[Tenkuu]

Just for the last point, but for someone that was supposedly terrible at magic, she certainly seemed to pull off some powerful magic during the battle against Averman. Of course this could just be that her decsent into insanity coincided with her really beefing up her magic training.

Ah, but was that her or was it Voidsent magic? Hard to tell in that fight.

[CyrilLucifer]

Well, since we're on the subject of mortals and Ascians and "of this world..."

I'd just like to point out the SMN questline has a very, very interesting line from Chalice:
"We were raised unto greatness by Lahabrea himself."

While Chalice doesn't elaborate, it is very related to this thread of discussion of possibly being mortals.

[myahele]

Seeing that Edda now exists as a "ghost" that pops up in town instead of a voidsent monstrosity, I believe that it was Edda's power all along.

With that said, she may have been terrible at magic initially, but she clearly improved since she made it to mor dhona solo.

Thankfully, it seems like we'll learn more about the Void in this expansion