macros: bad for DPS?

[Amberyl]

I've been reading your posts, it's obvious from them that you aren't reading the topic though(or you have been reading it and are being intentionally dense as your trolling mechanism), as you keep bringing up hardware macros when the topic is obviously about ingame ones.

It's relevant and valid, stop stooping to personal insults or you'll get the thread closed.

Saeed is asserting that no good player would macro, when the truth of the matter is different. Plenty of good players macro, they just don't do it legitimately, which defeats the point of the current crippled system. His suggestion that the ideal of manually inputting everything with high precision is generally achievable, and that therefore only poor players macro, is both invalid and unfair, since many of the people he will be using as a counter-example simply aren't telling anyone what they're doing. (Although as I mentioned, many do, and show other players how to do it.)

[saeedaisspecial]

It's relevant and valid, stop stooping to personal insults or you'll get the thread closed.

Saeed is asserting that no good player would macro, when the truth of the matter is different. Plenty of good players macro, they just don't do it legitimately, which defeats the point of the current crippled system. His suggestion that the ideal of manually inputting everything with high precision is generally achievable, and that therefore only poor players macro, is both invalid and unfair, since many of the people he will be using as a counter-example simply aren't telling anyone what they're doing. (Although as I mentioned, many do, and show other players how to do it.)

How about addressing the points I make instead of strawman-ing me.

[Amberyl]

How about addressing the points I make instead of strawman-ing me.

Sorry, just got up and missed your post.

Say you're in a fight, you have to dodge some AoEs and stuff, you start to fall behind in the "perfect" rotation, you need to make adjustments to make sure nothing drops off. Limiting yourself to a rigid macro is not going to allow you to work around these changes that need to be made.

You forget the bit where I explained how hardware macro can be paused, simply by taking your finger off the key, and that weaving non-GCD and buffs into it can be trivialized down to perhaps one, or two, in-client macros for the remainder of the setup.

You seem to think macro work is some unbending, rigid structure? Within the client, there's some truth to that but it's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being far too general in your dismissal of what is and isn't possible, whether that's done legitimately not.

[saeedaisspecial]

You forget the bit where I explained how hardware macro can be paused, simply by taking your finger off the key, and that weaving non-GCD and buffs into it can be trivialized down to perhaps one, or two, in-client macros for the remainder of the setup.

You seem to think macro work is some unbending, rigid structure? Within the client, there's some truth to that but it's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being far too general in your dismissal of what is and isn't possible, whether that's done legitimately not.

Sure, they can be paused, and resumed, and even restarted mid way through, but they aren't as flexible as simply just inputting the commands yourself and that is the inherent flaw, anyone smart would realise this. It is not a hard thing to do, there is no reason to automate such a thing when this game is so simple.

Actually, I just realised your entire argument was "Well, it allows DPS to perform their actions and still be able to focus on dodging mechanics!" Which is ludicrous, since a high end player by sheer virtue of being a high end player does not need to do this, as they can multi-task and are playing at well, the high end. This game isn't that hard that multi-tasking is difficult.

[Hali]

How do people struggle so much with fight mechanics that they require hardware macros to be set up? No fight in this game requires much thought capacity to dodge 1 hit mechanics (possibly mechanics in T9's Divebomb phase, but still not a lot of thought is required). The game's main system is based around memorising a set pattern of events. If you really need a a button to do all your DPS, whilst you focus on dodging, I really do pity you.

[Amberyl]

It is not a hard thing to do, there is no reason to automate such a thing when this game is so simple.

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

[Dano]

I only use macro for my off GCD skills and I stack them in a single macro so I can fire them in between GCDs.

I think it's just inefficient to macro GCD skills, especially on a melee combo because depending on the situation you might need to change your rotation on the fly or interrupt to dodge something, it's better to muscle memorize your rotations and input manually.

a good class to start with this practice is monk.

[Amberyl]

How do people struggle so much with fight mechanics that they require hardware macros to be set up?

I don't know - perhaps ask them, rather than being so flippant? People wouldn't do it if they didn't think they needed to. I'm not defending macro use, or debating it's ethics. I'm simply pointing out someone who is being too harsh to the other posters in this thread, based on an ideal that isn't as real as he thinks it is.

Razer wouldn't be able to sell a large chunk of it's product range if that weren't the case.

What you really should be asking yourself, is does the current system work, and is it fair to all? Not judging people based on an assumed standard.

[saeedaisspecial]

No, I completely agree. For some classes, it's not a hard thing at all. But that's not true of all classes, and some require much more micro-management and movement than others.

And that level of micromanagement is incredibly simple compared to a lot of games. So much so that anyone who struggles really has greater concerns than their DPS in a fight.

I think essentially we want the same thing here - parity - but at different ends of the spectrum. The problem is that in the current situation, you cannot achieve parity at either extreme, since it is so easy to use and hide illegitimate (and infinitely more effective) automation. You're asserting that any player that adopts any level of automation is fundamentally flawed for doing so, despite the ideal that you're holding those players against being much rarer than you seem to be aware of. To be frank, you're being overly harsh, when your assumptions are flawed. You'll just put people off playing and things aren't as black and white as you claim.

They are fundamentally flawed, they may not be as rigid as in game macros, but they are rigid enough that a good player should instantly be able to recognise the disadvantages, that you need to be able to pick and choose when you use each ability. MNK or SMN I would say are the greatest examples of this, where their rotations are rather fluid and change depending on circumstances in the fight, how their debuffs have ticked with interacting with other mechanics of the fight, and so on, a good player realises they need complete control over the actions they perform. That is why macros are inherently bad.

[Amberyl]

I think it's just inefficient to macro GCD skills, especially on a melee combo because depending on the situation you might need to change your rotation on the fly or interrupt to dodge something.

True of the monk, yes, but not true of the Dragoon. The Dragoon's rotation is linear, and is essentially broken down into three chunks, with movement and dodging doing little more than reducing the viability/need for the final chunk. Everything else is non-GCD and can be weaved when you need it. In the 'A Rotation Reborn' thread, there's a wonderful image that gets across just how inflexible the Dragoon rotation actually is.

I agree, tho. Anyone macro'ing the Monk is doing themselves a disservice.