macros: bad for DPS?

[Amberyl]

The main thing you seem to have missed though, shown by your dead dps dont dps remark, is this topic is about maximized dps, which assumes the person doing the dps isnt dead in the first place.

Word play and semantics. If the ideal were so achievable, then companies like Razer wouldn't have a market for their £200 MMO-geared keyboards.

[saeedaisspecial]

Word play and semantics. If the ideal were so achievable, then companies like Razer wouldn't have a market for their £200 MMO-geared keyboards.

The fact you're focusing on the minority when the majorty min/max their DPS without using macros and/or third party tools is funny.
You're always harping on about how people use hardware macros so they can focus on dodging, when the real fact is, a huge majority of players don't do this and don't need to. It just sounds as if you're accusing everyone who can do what you can't of cheating.

[Amberyl]

You're always harping on about how people use hardware macros so they can focus on dodging, when the real fact is, a huge majority of players don't do this and don't need to.

I wasn't aware you knew me to make that distinction. It is a valid point here, however, and one you're over looking, which is why I raised it. No, not every player out there does this, or has a product capable of doing it. But many have, and many do. Either with simple short burst macros triggered on mouse buttons, or more complex, layered macros, on expensive keyboards. They're regularly discussed on vent/ts, as is how easily Square's intentional crippling of the macro system in this game is bypassed.

Don't hate on the messenger. Chasing the ideal is all about min/maxing, and this is a popular way of achieving that.

It seems ridiculous that the legitimate player is penalized for macro'ing within the client, when products like this are readily accessible.

[saeedaisspecial]

Don't hate on the messenger. Chasing the ideal is all about min/maxing, and this is a popular way of achieving that.

It seems ridiculous that the legitimate player is penalized for macro'ing within the client, when products like this are readily accessible.

Except that macroing, even with tools is inherently a bad thing. There are times like already brought up in the thread where you may not want to perform your full macro.
You might be pulled away from the mob to dodge an AoE, your macro keeps running and when you get back it does the third action on the list instead of the second, where you were when you ran off, breaking your combo. There could be points (and there are in certain fights) where you need to hold DPS, and you can't stop because welp, you're using a macro. In Turn 6 Bouquet starts casting? Macro running? You're dead. In Turn 7 you might have to turn for voices, your macro keeps running? GJ. You've just wiped the raid.
They are bad, not just because of the delays with in game macros, but all types are bad. You should never rely on them.

No top tier player will min/max using any sort of macros.

[Amberyl]

There are times like already brought up in the thread where you may not want to perform your full macro. <snip> No top tier player will min/max using any sort of macros.

And as has already been pointed out, you don't have to use the full macro just because you've pressed the button. In the client, they can be aborted easily with other skills, or even with a blank echo macro. With hardware macros, you often have the option to hold the button to run the macro, or can also have a separate key or second key press to stop all macros in progress. With the Razer Death Adder, a middling level, incredibly common mouse, it's possible to macro the Dragoon's entire GCD rotation onto one mouse button that is held to progress the rotation, with the player then easily free to weave non-GCD and buffs with a only few keys.

As for no top-tier players using then? That's outright ignorance, I'm afraid. You're kidding yourself, sorry.

[TheMax1087]

Word play and semantics. If the ideal were so achievable, then companies like Razer wouldn't have a market for their £200 MMO-geared keyboards.

Incase you couldnt tell by the content of my post, i play with a controller(even though i play on pc), so razer having a £200 MMO-geared keyboard has no bearing on me at all.

As for no top-tier players using then? That's outright ignorance, I'm afraid. You're kidding yourself, sorry.

Saeed specifically said "No top tier player will min/max using any sort of macros.", min/maxing being the whole point of the macro vs no macro debate. I know you are trolling in this topic, but the very first post has a vid of someone doing the same rotation side by side losing dps by using macros.

[Amberyl]

...but the very first post has a vid of someone doing the same rotation side by side losing dps by using macros.

Now do that on a mouse or keyboard with two decimal place accuracy to their driver-based/hardware-based macros, and tell me it will be less. Read my posts, perhaps, rather than just spewing venom at them. Top tier players using hardware macros do exist. I've sat and listened to many on vent and ts, and what they're doing is extremely easy to replicate with inexpensive, widely available hardware. They are not being banned for their behaviour, so why are players adhering to TOS who only use the client to macro, still being penalised?

You can't claim the top tier are some idyllic group of players who only ever do things manually, because this simply isn't a blanket truth.

[saeedaisspecial]

You can't claim the top tier are some idyllic group of players who only ever do things manually, because this simply isn't a blanket truth.

You're posting about idyllic situations. How do I know high end players don't do this? Because this isn't a a game where everything can be perfectly calculated to run smoothly with a macro.
The "ideal" rotations in this game have been perfectly timed and calculated by players to get maximum uptime/DPS. They work perfectly on dummies, but not against encounters with monsters, because of AoEs that need to be dodged, adds that need to be killed, phases that require holding DPS.
You need to be flexible enough in combat to account for such things, there's a reason we haven't automated everything in life, because human judgement needs to be made.
Say you're in a fight, you have to dodge some AoEs and stuff, you start to fall behind in the "perfect" rotation, you need to make adjustments to make sure nothing drops off. Limiting yourself to a rigid macro is not going to allow you to work around these changes that need to be made.
Smart, high end players realise this. Nothing in this game requires so much focus that automation is necessary. There's a reason high end players are high end, because they can do it all. Go look at other games, where high end players in games such as starcraft are hitting insane amounts of actions per minute, and are still able to focus and plan out a game to victory.

[Amberyl]

How about addressing the points I make instead of strawman-ing me.

Sorry, just got up and missed your post.

Say you're in a fight, you have to dodge some AoEs and stuff, you start to fall behind in the "perfect" rotation, you need to make adjustments to make sure nothing drops off. Limiting yourself to a rigid macro is not going to allow you to work around these changes that need to be made.

You forget the bit where I explained how hardware macro can be paused, simply by taking your finger off the key, and that weaving non-GCD and buffs into it can be trivialized down to perhaps one, or two, in-client macros for the remainder of the setup.

You seem to think macro work is some unbending, rigid structure? Within the client, there's some truth to that but it's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being far too general in your dismissal of what is and isn't possible, whether that's done legitimately not.

[saeedaisspecial]

You forget the bit where I explained how hardware macro can be paused, simply by taking your finger off the key, and that weaving non-GCD and buffs into it can be trivialized down to perhaps one, or two, in-client macros for the remainder of the setup.

You seem to think macro work is some unbending, rigid structure? Within the client, there's some truth to that but it's not a blanket truth. Again, you're being far too general in your dismissal of what is and isn't possible, whether that's done legitimately not.

Sure, they can be paused, and resumed, and even restarted mid way through, but they aren't as flexible as simply just inputting the commands yourself and that is the inherent flaw, anyone smart would realise this. It is not a hard thing to do, there is no reason to automate such a thing when this game is so simple.

Actually, I just realised your entire argument was "Well, it allows DPS to perform their actions and still be able to focus on dodging mechanics!" Which is ludicrous, since a high end player by sheer virtue of being a high end player does not need to do this, as they can multi-task and are playing at well, the high end. This game isn't that hard that multi-tasking is difficult.