Echo for EX and Coils, wtf?

[Odett]

Team A - Players with the minimum gear to do a content
Team B - Players with i100-i110 gear pieces

Echo helps Team A have the same stats as Team B, but both teams have to deal with the same mechanics.

If you think A is a group of bad players because they have a stat boost, you should also think B is a group of bad players for over-gearing (stat boost) for an easy content.

It's not as simple as that. What if Team A has the same average ilv of Team B, but they have bad DPS due to bad rotations, and tanks die due to not using one of their 6+ defensive cooldowns? Echo will make it so they do as much damag and mitigate it as Team B without the Echo, but in the harder fights that follow, a bad rotation will mean a wipe due to a lost DPS race. This is what some players mean when they say that it encourages bad players to stay bad.

[Gormogon]

they have bad DPS due to bad rotations

Oh boy here we go.

Now lets bring in skill level into it as well.

Next we are gonna question diversity.

Then go low enough to whine about jobs over classes, right?

[Odett]

Oh boy here we go.

Now lets bring in skill level into it as well.

Next we are gonna question diversity.

Then go low enough to whine about jobs over classes, right?

Right? Who ever heard about skill being required to win fights? The nerve of those elitists, I tell you.

[Odett]

I see a lot of bad qualities of the Echo and a lot of convenient ones.

It's convenient in fights like TitanHM, EX, and Ifrit EX due to not having to cry as you wipe due to the same DPS consistently dying and not having enough damage for heart, bombs, and nails. With Echo, you can have 1 tank, 1 healer, and one DPS do the whole fight post-heart in Titan HM. At the same time, a lot of those people that get carried (dying before or at the start of phase 5 is a carry whether you want to admit it or not) get the clear and go on to Titan EX and die from HM mechanics.

Echo definitely makes T1 and T4 marginally easier, T2 has been a joke every since the Enrage method was discovered. It certainly makes things more convenient for players who wish to grind these turns in order to get ilv 90 gear without spending Myth, but a lot of new players also feel disappointed that they never got to experience the fight without kid gloves. Sure, you can make a "no Echo" PF, but good luck with having people join. Even if you dislike the Echo, you won't join because it makes things more convenient, whether you want to admit it or not. With that said, in T1 and T4, if you're a tank and you cannot establish agro, you will wipe your group.

Levi getting Echo will mean that Wavetooth dying super fast without probably a need to stunlock, reducing the difficulty of the fight. Bubbles will go down fast too, but it's not even a DPS race anymore with most people in ilv100 gear, it was much more challenging when the content came out and everyone was ilv 90 at most.

Where I see Echo as a failure is in the difficulty curve of the game. A lot of players had trouble with fights like Titan HM because they had never had to deal with so many mechanics before that fight. This game goes from "a baby can do it" easy to actually having to pay attention at level 50. Dying in Titan HM and winning the fight because 3-4 other players knew it well and beat it and going on to unlock harder fights without learning previous easier ones is only doing yourself a disservice because the game only gets more punishing.

I used to think that making fights easier would only allow a higher pool of poor players unlocking a harder fight and making it harder for others, but I stopped thinking like that after I beat Titan EX in 2.1 and facepalmed at nonhealers dying in Ifrit EX, which is arguably the easiest primal BY FAR if you're not a healer. The truth is that poor players will continue to exist whether there is Echo or not.

What Echo has been achieving is helping groups who need an extra push to down a fight that's no longer part of the latest patch. You can see Echo as the helping hand you've been needing, or see it as a disservice to players because it's essentially the devs saying "Hey, we're gonna give a stacking handicap to a boss so you can beat it even though it can definitely be killed without it", you're not wrong either way.

[Sp3cia1]

Why should a end user who hasn't learned anything the previous raids be able to go into the next set, considering they just build on top of existing mechanics. End user who don't learn anything at the end game isn't a designer fault, its a PICNIC problem.

[Kuwagami]

Why should a end user who hasn't learned anything the previous raids be able to go into the next set, considering they just build on top of existing mechanics. End user who don't learn anything at the end game isn't a designer fault, its a PICNIC problem.

this is so blatantly wrong..... people could learn the game in any order and still have the exact same difficulties at each step. All the fights are totally disconnected from each other mechanic wise....


the ONLY thing that you can learn and which helps you afterwards is coordination inside of your group. That's all. But let's be honest, you don't need to do T5 to have coordination.

[Odett]

snip

I am not directly defending Sp3cia1's comment because I do not like their wording, but no, it is not blatantly wrong. All fight's aren't exactly disconnected to each other, but you gain experience from one that you can use for the other. Titan HM to Titan EX is a good example, things may be different, but a knowledge of how to dodge certain mechanics will lend to a smaller learning curve. Learning how to keep DPS up in movement-heavy fights will also lend to using similar tactics in another movement-heavy fight.

You don't need T5 for coordination, but it's certainly a premilinary fight coordination-wise. If your group cannot do Fireball=Soak Team, Conflag=under Twintania, and Fireball with Conflag=go inside Conflag, there is no way that you will last in SCoB.

[Warlyx]

You don't need T5 for coordination, but it's certainly a premilinary fight coordination-wise. If your group cannot do Fireball=Soak Team, Conflag=under Twintania, and Fireball with Conflag=go inside Conflag, there is no way that you will last in SCoB.

this , and titan extreme will teach u to move or die!

[Kuwagami]

snip

what I wanted to say is that knowing T2 in and out won't help you for (as an example) T4. Titan HM to titan Ex is a special case as it's the same fight but harder. Same mechanics, just a few new ones. There are similarities, but nothing in T1-5 prepares you for T6's mechanics

However, you do learn coordination (as I said), and while T5 isn't needed to learn it, it's the direct roadblock for non coordinated groups. Because people who can't coordinate will just get ravaged later.

[Daniolaut]

Do gamers these days really have no pride?

Mostly no.

XIV 1.0 was a failure because it didnt delve into this kind of mindset. You actually had to wait a whole half a second for your menu to open and people just wouldnt have it. They couldnt work around the mechanics that were less than perfect because it took just slightly more effort.

Hell even before the echo, you have the small few select of people who did play 1.0 selling wins to all the new 2.0 players. So the success of 2.0 is due to its "here have all the things so super easy."

Now with animus and atma people actually have to play the game instead of it handing them everything, like materia or BLM's not being able to just plant themselves and cast and never worry about having to move and people still complain.

Seriously, this generation of gamers seem to prefer a menu simulator than a role playing game where you have to actually do something to get something.

My only complaints about ARR though is lack of music, and lack of variety to farm myth. Thats it.