Possible Paladin Rework...

[Giantbane]

PLD isn't really outclassed by WAR for AoE threat. AoE damage, definitely, but not threat (PLD has worse burst AoE enmity, but, over time, it's basically a wash; and PLD can actually maintain AoE enmity for longer than to Flashes' negligible cost). Flash is weaker than either SC or Overpower on a per use basis, but, as has been said over and over and over again, Flash is basically free: it costs MP rather than TP, and it doesn't even cost that much MP (you can spam 9-10 Flashes before you run out of mp and it will have no effect upon your ST rotation viability whatsoever). The lower effectiveness of Flash on a per use basis is the price you pay for having an AoE enmity generator that you can spam with no concern at all.

It's getting kind of old to see PLDs whinging on about Flash and about how amazing Overpower is when they're completely ignoring the fact that Overpower is expensive as hell which is *why* it's so strong.

I think AoE threat is like single target with the WAR. The ability to have buffs effect overpower, and the ability for overpower to crit is what pushes it so far ahead. You can even slot Flash if you're that worried about your resources to ease the cost. Although, you know very well that this really isn't necessary. The combination of overpower and SC means there's no need to actually flash anything if your resources are stressed, you can just stand there and refresh TP and still have a threat lead. Not to mention, overpower also isn't all that expensive if you've got a little time to recover after its use. If you're talking about using it in the middle of a long boss fight with few breaks, you may need to be careful about your TP, but otherwise it's not going to be an issue.

And there is a benefit to having it be TP based. For groups where you get a little break in between, TP restores much faster than MP. WAR has the advantage if you split groups up at all and don't pull everything. The PLD needs to spam riot combo if they empty their MP pool, or they won't have enough MP for the next group. On the WAR, even if you completely empty your TP, you'll probably have it back to half full by the time you get to the next group. And even if I find that I really need to conserve, it's usually just fine to switch to single target skills and throw out the occasional SC when wrath is full.

Anyhow, I *finally* got my PLD to 50 and it's really been night and day. I find the WAR's resources & threat much easier to manage in AoE situations due to the ability to be able to pull so far ahead up front and the faster speed at which TP is restored in between pulls. Oh, and you're doing a ton of damage as the WAR, so you kill stuff faster too.

I'm not saying that PLD needs the same AoE killing power and threat gen as the WAR, but there should be more parity.

[Kitru]

you can just stand there and refresh TP and still have a threat lead.

This is my point entirely. WAR, to recover from Overpower spam, has to stand around doing nothing, whether they're in an ST or AoE scenario. PLD can keep just keep attacking because they don't use MP for anything else (Stoneskin, but you're not going to be using that in an AoE scenario).

And there is a benefit to having it be TP based. For groups where you get a little break in between, TP restores much faster than MP.

You only get back 50 TP/GCD in combat and 100 TP/GCD back while out of combat. You're consuming TP every single GCD that you're attacking while you have Overpower so, unless you specifically stand there and do nothing during combat, the only recovery you have available to you is out of combat because even your ST rotation is a net TP/loss with each GCD.

PLDs only get back 1.67% of their max mp every GCD, but the only time they use MP is via Flash. When they are not Flashing, whether they're running to the next group or using their RoH combo, they are regenerating MP ,and it only takes 7 GCDs while in combat or 2.4 GCDs outside of combat to recover enough for a single Flash.

Consuming TP is not an "advantage" that Overpower has. It's an explicit disadvantage because the only way WAR can offset the consumption is by not doing anything. PLD recovers MP no matter what they're doing and can increase that significantly by using Riot Blade.

Consider this: a WAR and PLD both use Overpower 8 times at the start of combat. This puts the WAR at 360 TP and the PLD at ~5% MP. For the next combat, they both need to get back to full resources in order to AoE spam again.

WAR gets back 50 TP/GCD while in combat, 100 TP outside of combat, but will consume 55.73 TP/GCD by doing their ST rotation and using their Wrath consumer immediately (net 5.73 TP/GCD loss). So, if they stand around doing nothing while in combat, they'll get back to full in 13 GCDs; if they continue attacking, they'll require 7-8 GCDs while out of combat. It's basically one or the other (mixing and matching isn't really efficient).

PLD gets back 1.67% of max mp/GCD passively, while in combat, 5% per GCD while outside of combat (out of combat MP regen is tripled), and 9% back with each use of Riot Blade (not counting the passive regen). A PLD will require 57 GCDs of RoH spam, 16 GCDs of Riot Blade spam (2 GCDs each; 9% + 1.67% + 1.67% = 12.33% per Riot Blade; 95 / 12.33 = 7.7), or 19 GCDs while out of combat. No matter what, a PLD is doing *something* at all times.

Basically, WAR is better when you've got medium sized windows of out of combat regeneration (too short and they haven't regained enough TP; too long and the PLD would have gotten to full as well) and fights that are too short for PLD to recover with Riot Blade (i.e. less than 24 GCDs, e.g. 1 minute), but PLD is better when you need to actually be doing stuff constantly (especially when you have to alternate between ST and AoE: WAR will kill its TP and not be able to swap to ST while the PLD will have no issues whatsoever).

Both of them are entirely functional for massed AoE pulling; you're just used WAR.

WAR has the advantage if you split groups up at all and don't pull everything.

No, WAR has the advantage when groups die super fast (so that PLD doesn't have the opportunity to throw Riot Blades) and you're able to get away with standing around doing nothing. It has nothing to do with group size because, once you've hit a certain threshold, it's just a question of how many AoEs it takes to kill one target (since that'll be enough to kill every target).

I'm not saying that PLD needs the same AoE killing power and threat gen as the WAR, but there should be more parity.

There already *is* reasonable parity for the AoE resource consumption/regeneration and enmity generation between the two tanks (keep in mind, I said "reasonable parity" not "absolute parity"; WAR can definitely throw out AoE, especially if they know they're going to be able to stand around without issue afterwards). What you're missing is that WAR and PLD do not have the same resource paradigm concerning their AoEs, and you're so used to the WAR paradigm that you can't recognize how the PLD one works or what advantages it holds.

[Giantbane]

This is my point entirely. WAR, to recover from Overpower spam, has to stand around doing nothing, whether they're in an ST or AoE scenario. PLD can keep just keep attacking because they don't use MP for anything else (Stoneskin, but you're not going to be using that in an AoE scenario).

From personal experience, the WAR is so far ahead in terms of damage and threat that the WAR will still be ahead in both if he just stands there.

I can hit berkserk>overpower spam or unchained>overpower spam (or UBIR>overpower spam if I'm not chaining groups together), and crush everyone else's threat in 6-8 overpowers such that it shows up as barely noticeable blips. Then I usually have enough TP left that I can safely switch to single target, using SC on cooldown to maintain. If my TP feels really stressed, I can use Flash if I am somehow in a situation mid-fight where I need extra threat, and then make use of the MP pool in the same way that the PLD can. It's not as effective as it is on a PLD, but it doesn't have to be because the WAR can use his MP or TP for AoE threat if he wants that extra flexibility.

I can empty my MP pool on a PLD and I'm not as far ahead as the WAR is. And since my AoE is entirely based on MP, then I am forced to switch to single target to maintain. Even then, I'm not sure either riot or halone is really doing that much better than a WAR standing around waiting for his TP to either overpower or combo->SC when available

The only possibility for the PLD to be considered on par is if the fight goes on long enough such that the WAR has difficulty managing his TP. But I don't know of any fights where this is an issue unless the WAR is being extremely careless with his TP. Can you point any out?

Either way, I'm going mostly off of experience, which obviously isn't very definitive. Do you have the latest values for threat generated by flash, overpower and SC? This probably warrants a more in depth analysis.

[Daniolaut]

stuff all the time only stuff

Kitru do you even play FFXIV? All i ever see you doing on the forums is -attempting- to prove people wrong. Seriously

I did an HIJKLMNOP test and put my CDEFG on and added WTFDOUEVENFFXIV to my PLD and WAR and here are my results, you CANNOT argue these numbers so go away. (i70 giantsgall nq from skirmish in 1.0 on war vs i70+i100 {sword shield})

PICTURES so you cant get confused!!

This Paladin in shield oath!






This is Warrior in Defiance!




Same character! same gear! except PLD has better gear seeing as the shield is i100

WAR was about 1/6 crit hits where as PLD was 1/10 or so. Roughly I'm not going to spend all day hitting a freaking dummy to prove a point. (Auto attack was included in these ratios.)

I even made sure to include the auto attack.

Also both PLD and WAR are 30 points in vit. WAR's gain an automatic str bonus over PLD.

So non refutable WAR deals more damage thus gains more enmity over PLD. Thanks

What now??


Edit: i100 shield oops.

Note:

Your conversation with Giantbane is also ridiculous. this statement:

"It's getting kind of old to see PLDs whinging on about Flash and about how amazing Overpower is when they're completely ignoring the fact that Overpower is expensive as hell which is *why* it's so strong."

Is absurd. I cant think of a single pull in this entire game where the length a PLD can flash in relation to a WAR using overpower would lose threat because of loss of TP where a PLD would eventually win the threat race.

Flash is trash and needs to be on par with Overpower's threat generation. Never, ever, ever will PLD win a threat race where there are dps actually attacking the mobs.. that statement is absurd beyond absurdity.

[Dinivas]

The Oaths

For the love of god take these off the GCD. Maybe its just me but sometimes wasting a GCD to put these up can cost me precious seconds. Also maybe take off the MP cost as it unfair a WAR can just die res go defiance like he never died and a PLD has to wait or pop and either to get back into a stance.

This is a moot point as of 2.3. Defiance and Oath buffs don't get cancelled when you die anymore.

Let's be crazy. Sword Oath add's emnity to circle of scorn and increases damage, but doesn't increase defense or received healing. You now have a tank that can continue to be what it is now, or for people looking to have a bit more fun it can be a stance dancer. Switch to Sword oath when Circle of Scorn is up for that aoe threat gen, and to increase damage your doing, then switch back to shield oath for the defense and increase shield abilities.

This is an interesting idea, but it's just as simple to give CoS an enmity modifier on either the initial damage or the DoT as it is to micromanage Oaths. It's the only real AoE a PLD has and the fact that it lacks a real enmity modifier when Overpower and Steel Cyclone both have bonus enmity is why they suffer from weaker burst AoE threat. A WAR can go in, use Overpower and Steel Cyclone, and not have to worry about enmity. A PLD has to rely on Flash spam after the initial FoF/CoS and hope DPS don't get a proc or trigger happy. The reliance on Flash is why I made the switch early on from PLD to WAR. Overpower may be more expensive, but you don't have to rely on it to hold enmity in AoE situations.

I'm not suggesting PLD and WAR need to play the same, but PLD needs something to make AoE situations more bearable.

[Daniolaut]

Actually, it's almost always people trying to prove *me* wrong and me defending myself, generally by showing them that they don't know what they're talking about, like with you, over and over and over again.

Maybe because you fail at reading comprehension?

My initial statement:

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

your rebuttal

The only way that a WAR generates more enmity than a PLD is if they use their CDs properly .

So there you are simply wrong in your statement.

So not only does a proper WAR, even according to you, using proper buffs will keep threat, but also my initial statement stands that a WAR vs PLD in just straight threat generation a WAR wins again.

So your point is that WAR will hit harder with a single hit than PLD does? You seriously have no idea what "over time" means, do you? Taking a snapshot of a single hit doesn't mean shit, especially when the entire reason *why* a PLD generates more enmity over time than a WAR is because of the CDs and off-GCDs that you ignore.

Thus rendering this above statement incorrect and making you look bad. i'm not doing it you are.. sorry.

I recommend you learn wtf you're talking about before attempting to prove me wrong, rather than posting screenshots that only serve to prove that *you* don't know what you're talking about.Is absurd.

Again, the screen shots very specifically and in full support my initial statement.

And I never said they would. If you're just talking Overpower spam compared to Flash spam, Overpower spam wins handily. The difference is that, after Overpower spamming, a WAR has to sit there and do nothing while a PLD actually has the TP to do other stuff.

This is the issue that this thread is attempting to address and youre failing to grasp.

Also again.. a warrior just 'standing there' is a fail warrior. I never have tp issues on warrior, even while doing brayflox myth runs where i excessively use overpower to kill the mobs. Use flash or steel cyclone or something.. seriously. making other warriors look bad.

Overpower costs a good amount of TP because its every effective. We, as a group, minus you, are asking that since not only does flash -not- generate damage out put, that it at least be on par with Overpowers threat generation, even if that means it costs more. If you cant agree to that then thats your choice but to say that its not something that other people should expect i simply cant understand why you would feel that way. Anyskill that needs to be spammed in order to be effective is a skill that isnt useful as it should be.

I am not, nor have I ever, said that PLD can match a WAR on AoE enmity generation. WAR wins that fight handily. What I *have* said is that PLD AoE enmity isn't a problem. A PLD will be able to generate more than enough enmity with Flash sustainably, which is all that's needed.

So going back to the initial request...

If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

In conclusion

If a warrior doesnt need to use every last bit of tp to maintain aoe threat, imo, a paladin shouldnt have to use every last bit of mp to maintain threat. Riot Blade, imo, should be used to restore mp in fights where the PLD is constantly switching between stances, casting stoneskin often, or in long fights where mp could be an issue in general. If a PLD isnt able to generate enough threat after exhausting every bit of mp then the skill imo is not properly balanced. Especially if a equally geared warrior doesnt have to exhaust every bit of tp to maintain threat.

[Kitru]

Then I usually have enough TP left that I can safely switch to single target, using SC on cooldown to maintain.

And you'll still be short TP that entire time. To get back up to full, you're going to have to have empty GCDs. PLD *never* has to have empty GCDs, which is what I've been saying over and over and over.

Yes, if you know how to manage your TP, the cost of Overpower isn't going to be a major hindrance, but it is definitely something you have to play around with and avoid overusing specifically *because* it's expensive as hell. When you've got time to recover, it doesn't really matter, but as soon as you *don't*, you're going to see problems. Flash you can use with abandon, and it's not like it's ever hurting you.

Also, another point to consider, both tank's ranged attacks consume TP. When doing a large pull, a WAR is going to hurt their resource maintenance while grouping everything up whereas a PLD can throw Lobs without reducing their AoE enmity capability when everything is grouped up.

Even then, I'm not sure either riot or halone is really doing that much better than a WAR standing around waiting for his TP to either overpower or combo->SC when available

Damage wise, WAR definitely wins, because Flash doesn't do AoE damage. Enmity wise, it depends upon how many enemies are present since Riot Blade is ST. The more targets there are, the better Overpower spamming gets because it dilutes Riot Blade's contributions.

The only possibility for the PLD to be considered on par is if the fight goes on long enough such that the WAR has difficulty managing his TP.

T4. WP speed runs. There aren't that many in the current tier of content since mythflox is 1 trash pull>1 boss>1 trash pull> 1 boss, but in old school WP runs, as a WAR, you'd be running out of TP plenty often because there wasn't enough down time.

Gauntlets (prolonged encounters where you fight multiple groups in a row, without being able to engage them all at once and with no breaks in betwee), like t4 and WP speed runs, are the exact situations where PLD AoE enmity excels and WAR hits problems. WAR is perfectly fine when you've got plenty of time to regen TP by getting out of combat or standing around doing nothing, but when you've got to alternate between ST and AoE (or multiple groups of AoE that are not simultaneous), WAR starts having significant problems.

Do you have the latest values for threat generated by flash, overpower and SC? This probably warrants a more in depth analysis.

Flash is ~480 epot and is reduced by the tank stance damage penalties and increased by the enmity multipliers. It doesn't benefit from FoF though (I find it strange that the damage penalties reduce Flash's enmity gen but the damage bonuses don't; it's really weird, but I tested it out; an interesting side effect of this is that, because it's not based on damage dealt, when an enemy is immune to damage, Flash will generate the same amount of enmity it generates on anyone else) and can't crit. That puts it at 480 * .8 * 2 = 768 epot/use.

Overpower is 600 epot (120 * 5) and Steel Cyclone is 900 (200 / .75 * 3). If you're just talking Overpower spam, that's 600 * .75 * 2 = 900 epot/use. When you start adding in Maim and DPS CDs, it just gets worse, but Maim requires preparation (so you're not likely to have it when you're solidifying AoE enmity since you're only going to use ST attacks *after* the DPS isn't going to pull off of you) and DPS CDs operate under the assumption that you're not going to need them down the line.

The question, of course, is not "is WAR stronger than PLD for AoE". That's a foregone conclusion. It's like asking if MNK or BLM has better AoE damage. The question is whether PLD is weak enough on AoE *enmity* that it needs to be improved. PLD has more than enough such that it has no good reason to have issues so there's no real need for it. It could probably stand a bit of a buff, but it's not like WAR in 2.0.

The issue with PLD AoE is the complete and total lack of damage. Both tanks can generate more than enough AoE enmity to tank effectively, but WAR can actually contribute noticeable amounts of damage while a PLD just as the 25 pot/GCD from CoS. The enmity is fine. Yes, WAR's is better but that "better" is basically redundant.

[Kitru]

Again, the screen shots very specifically and in full support my initial statement.

No, they don't. All you showed was a PLD hitting with Savage Blade and an auto-attack, a PLD hitting with Rage of Halone and an auto-attack, a WAR hitting with Skull Sunder and an auto-attack, and a WAR hitting with Butcher's Block an an auto-attack.

Let me break down your ignorance:

A PLD auto-attack and a WAR auto-attack are not the same thing. A PLD makes an auto-attack every 2.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed); a WAR makes an auto-attack very 3.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed). Even with every other piece of gear and stats identical, a WAR's auto-attack is going to throw up a number ~45% higher, but the contributions over time will be identical because a PLD will be making 45% more auto-attacks.

The only thing you're showing with SB, RoH, SS, and BB is that they have different potencies, as if that was the only thing that was a factor. You're completely missing the fact that PLD has a *way* stronger DPS CD (Unchained + Berserk are barely equal to FoF on its own), not to mention the fact that it gets an extra 50 pot/GCD off of the GCD compared to WAR's 12.5.

You can throw up pictures of a single attack paired with an auto-attack all you want, but it's not going to prove anything beyond your own ignorance. You could use the same methodology to argue that a DRG deals more damage than a MNK because a DRG can throw up a 1.3k hit while a MNK is going to manage ~700 (and, if you didn't know, MNK is the best DPS in the game atm; it beats out DRG handily), and you would be just as wrong.

[Daniolaut]

No, they don't. All you showed was a PLD hitting with Savage Blade and an auto-attack, a PLD hitting with Rage of Halone and an auto-attack, a WAR hitting with Skull Sunder and an auto-attack, and a WAR hitting with Butcher's Block an an auto-attack.

Let me break down your ignorance:

A PLD auto-attack and a WAR auto-attack are not the same thing. A PLD makes an auto-attack every 2.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed); a WAR makes an auto-attack very 3.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed). Even with every other piece of gear and stats identical, a WAR's auto-attack is going to throw up a number ~45% higher, but the contributions over time will be identical because a PLD will be making 45% more auto-attacks.


The only thing you're showing with SB, RoH, SS, and BB is that they have different potencies, as if that was the only thing that was a factor. You're completely missing the fact that PLD has a *way* stronger DPS CD (Unchained + Berserk are barely equal to FoF on its own), not to mention the fact that it gets an extra 50 pot/GCD off of the GCD compared to WAR's 12.5.

You can throw up pictures of a single attack paired with an auto-attack all you want, but it's not going to prove anything beyond your own ignorance. You could use the same methodology to argue that a DRG deals more damage than a MNK because a DRG can throw up a 1.3k hit while a MNK is going to manage ~700 (and, if you didn't know, MNK is the best DPS in the game atm; it beats out DRG handily), and you would be just as wrong.

Listen, and try to read this time.

Your first statement was that WAR doesnt generate as much threat as PLD. You then went on to contradict yourself that a war indeed does generate more threat. Either it does or does not, it cant be both. Again, if you were talking like a 15 hour fight where PLD could get hate over a WAR in aoe cause the WAR would exhaust all TP and pld could keep going longer cause of the MP/TP ratio's then MAYBE PLD could eventually have more threat.

Also in single target in a 15 hour fight where the PLD's auto attack against WAR's crit hit and STR bonus, a PLD MIGHT pull threat. I dont know, and i dont really care cause nothing will ever ever last that long.

Also your statement about people attacking you and you trying to just "defend" yourself.. is also incorrect. My initial post was in conjunction to the OP simply to ask that PLD become a more enjoyable job to play. You tried to refute my statement that WAR generated more threat on PLD which was completely off topic. So seriously, youre the one with a bone to pick not me. I'm just uncertain why you have such good information would waste it on situations that are off topic of a thread and use it to argue situations that would never arise in Eorzea..

[Kitru]

Your first statement was that WAR doesnt generate as much threat as PLD. You then went on to contradict yourself that a war indeed does generate more threat.

Apparently you don't really understand qualifying statements. Do you also have problems seeing shades of grey?

I have always said that the only way that a WAR generates more than a PLD is if the WAR uses their CDs properly. This is because, if you simply use everyone on CD for both tanks, using the appropriate high enmity rotation, a PLD generates noticeably more enmity/GCD than a WAR does. However, if you use the proper UBIR rotation rather than simply using everything on CD, the synergistic effects of said CD usage provides a large enough increase in enmity generation that it will eclipse the PLDs previous advantage.

I'm also quite curious as to how you still think that your posted images are even *remotely* applicable, beyond evidence that you really have no place being in this discussion in the first place.