Possible Paladin Rework...

[Ceodore]

I think you bring up a great point. The self healing is quite nice, and it would be better if it wasn't based on just % of damage delt, and actually benefited from their buff as well, but as it stands, it's kind of weak. You might find one Inner Beast to be worth maybe 1 tick of a well geared healer's Regen. And yeah, holmgang is such a sad thing. Equal, they might be close. I'd have to say this, a Warrior requires proper timing and skill, much more so than Paladins. An improperly timed skill makes all the difference. Like the healing from Inner Beast, if used too soon, means that they may over heal themselves. So essentially, what you're doing is taking on the job tank and minor healer. I'd say someone who is able to do this would make a great warrior, but an even better Paladin, as we don't really have to worry about performing two jobs at once, and can focus on just tanking. It's like specializations in the work place. It's great if you're good at everything, but that just means with the same effort, you could be better at one thing.

There's a bit of a caveat to that, I think. Tank DPS is appearing to matter a lot for T11-13 because these are groups who are trying to progress through the Final Coil at lower gear levels than the content is technically tuned at. I think that if all of the DPS had i120 weapons, the Tanks likely wouldn't have to sacrifice as much mitigation to contribute more than they usually do. As the slower progressing groups up their ratios of Poetics gear, the DPS checks will ease off further. Once everyone's average gear level is between 120 and 130, Tanks will probably be able to go full mitigation again if they want without rendering the fights unwinnable.

Yes, I like you. This ^ is why we are tanks. If I wanted to be a DPS, I'd play on my DPS classes. The whole, tanks need damage because of DPS race just means that your DPS just aren't good enough, and you need people who have better DPS. My job, first and foremost, is to make the lives of my healers easier. Tanks who sacrifice tools of their job in order to DPS should remember that a Healer in Cleric stance will always do more damage than you can. If the tank is really good too, you will only need one healer for a fight, meaning you can actually sacrifice a healing spot to bring a DPS. I believe it's safe to say that 1 dps will do a whole lot more damage than a dpsing tank.

Did you really see the need to write such a wall of text? I don't see many people reading it.

You really need to get into your head that 20% damage reduction is interchangeable with the combination of 25% more hp and 25% more healing. It is exactly the same effect. So statements like "Defiance being slightly better with the HP pool increase" are just not correct.

And you don't know what Defiance does apparently. It's not +25% healing, it's +20%. However, I must thank you for bringing my horrible oversight to my attention, if only inadvertently. Defiance is actually not better. It's worse. +20% healing is not interchangeable with -20% damage taken. Allow me to illustrate... or well, mathematate... Two tanks, one warrior, one paladin. Both have base HP of 4000. For a second, let's assume Defiance is just a +20% healing received buff. Both tanks take a hit that would normally be 1000 damage. A Paladin with Shield Oath would take 800 damage. A Warrior would take the full 1000 damage to the gobber. At this point, I'd like to recall my earlier statement of "+20% healing is an after the fact buff" Your healer, let's say, is really crappy, and can only heal 500 with their cure. The paladin recovers a flat 500 HP, meaning they are now at 3700 HP ((4000-800) + 500 = 3700) The Warrior gets the same heal from the same healer and it's now boosted to 600, meaning they are now at 3600 HP. So no, these buffs are not interchangeable. Even with the +25% hp, this buff is still lacking.

However, I must conceded to TouchandFeel on that the self healing is there to make up for this buff. But that's really it. There are a lot of things that Warriors have to do to make up for a buff that isn't on par with the Paladin's flat damage reduction. Then when you still take into effect that Paladin cooldowns are also stronger, plus they also parry and block, and I can cycle through the cooldowns and always have one up with no down time, you're really looking at two tanks, one with all the tools and skills for their job at their disposal, and another that comes off as a patch work job done on an attempt to make a class a hybrid of dps and tank. I've stated it before in other threads, but I suppose I didn't state it yet here. Paladins do not, I repeat, DO NOT, need to be reworked or made stronger in a dps aspect. Things that increase enmity, fine, Flash enmity increase was great, and it was a step in the right direction on a class that is well suited for the role as it is. I do believe though that Warriors need a serious rework and some more umph in the tanking department. Leave it to a Paladin to want the other tank class to be better equipped for their job.

Edit: Since I also see a lot of people complaining about Paladin damage, if it really matters so much, look at your cross class skills too. I use Foresight, Fracture, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, and Stoneskin. Keep Fracture up and use Circle of Scorn when you can. I say the same thing to DPS. Spread your DOTs around, you'll do more damage if you have DOTs up on more than one target than just placing the DOT on one target. Tunnel vision is the worst when it's not necessary.

Another Edit: In case people were wondering what the cycle for my Cooldowns I use are so I always have something up. Bloodbath+Fight or Flight 15s, Rampart 20s, Convalescence 20s, Foresight 20s, Awareness 25s, Bulwark 15s, Sentinel 10s, Bloodbath+Fight or Flight 15s, Rampart 20s, Convalescence 20s, Foresight 20s. This is the rotation used during mob pulls. It provides about 200 seconds of constant buffs during trash pulls, where doing extra things like casting Stoneskin is too difficult. During boss fights, I throw in Stoneskin in between each cooldown in order to 1. stretch the time between them out a little to cycle them together. Each stoneskin give me about 5 to 10 seconds of duration each. 2. Hey, at almost a 900 HP shield, it's something worth spending my MP on. and 3. Buttons are fun to press! That's what I want to bring to attention from an earlier post. If you're just mashing the same three buttons over and over, then you really aren't playing this class right, as I am sure the same isn't true for playing Warrior.

[SpookyGhost]

There is a 3-4% healing difference between WAR and PLD.

This isn't 2.0. WAR isn't built around self healing anymore. WAR mitigates damage, consistently, no matter what. For every big hit they will always have at least 1 CD to use. That's their thing.

Here is what PLD has that WAR doesn't:

1.) A -STR down debuff
2.) A shield
3.) A silence
4.) Stoneskin
5.) Hallowed Ground
6.) Sword Oath

Here is what WAR has that PLD doesn't:

1.) -10% Slashing Resist
2.) -10% Damage Dealt
3.) Higher damage in tank stance
4.) AOE damage that isn't just a DoT
5.) A NON RNG Shield in the form of Inner Beast
6.) An off the GCD tank stance (meaning you can start tanking or stop tanking without using a GCD)

There's other stuff, but you get the point. Both are fine where they are. They compliment eachother and make up for what the other one lacks. WAR does its job perfectly fine, PLD does its job perfectly fine. The only thing I could see that needs changing on either is Holmgang, only because Hallowed Ground is just such a powerful CD and Holmgang really doesn't compare nor does it bring something that HG doesn't.

Also, tank DPS matters. The entire point of tank DPS and maximizing it is that you don't sacrifice your tanking capabilities for your DPS. If you need more health for that particular encounter, you don't just say "screw it!" and wear full STR accessories. You trade VIT for STR as needed. If you are compromising your group's DPS or your healer's DPS, then you aren't optimizing your DPS correctly. It's not only important in world first progression, it's important for getting the turn over as quick as possible and dealing with less mechanics. That, in itself, is a form of mitigation. So don't just think because you're a tank you can slack on DPS, that same argument can be made for healers not DPSing because their primary job is to heal. If you aren't dead, and they aren't doing anything else, they should be DPSing. You have NO excuse because tanking and DPSing go hand in hand (you're going to have to hit the boss to tank it).

[TouchandFeel]

If I wanted to be a DPS, I'd play on my DPS classes ... My job, first and foremost, is to make the lives of my healers easier.

Yes as a tank, your role is to keep your party from taking damage and to make the healer's job of keeping you alive easier, so again I point out a dead enemy cannot damage you or your team which contributes directly to your role as a tank, therefore the damage that a tank can do is very relevant to their role.
Should a tank forego the responsibilities of their role to try to just dish out big hits, of course not, but the damage that a tank can deal out while doing their job and how much that contributes to the success of their team is actually a big deal.

It is not just the responsibility of DPS to damage things and try to kill enemies as quickly as possible, it is everyone's because enemies dying faster contributes to the success of all the roles. A perfect example of this is a WHM going cleric stance and holy spamming a large group of enemies because by killing them faster it prevents more damage than they would have been able to heal if they focused solely on that. Sometimes the best way of reaching a goal is not the direct route.

Since I also see a lot of people complaining about Paladin damage, if it really matters so much, look at your cross class skills too. I use Foresight, Fracture, Bloodbath, Mercy Stroke, and Stoneskin. Keep Fracture up and use Circle of Scorn when you can. I say the same thing to DPS. Spread your DOTs around, you'll do more damage if you have DOTs up on more than one target than just placing the DOT on one target. Tunnel vision is the worst when it's not necessary.

I use those too, as I am sure many other PLD do, but that still doesn't bring PLD in ShO damage close to WAR in Defiance damage. With WAR I consistently do around 20% more damage than with PLD, even more with the Storm's Eye debuff up. Some people may not think that is a big deal, but I think that it is.

[Ceodore]

Also, tank DPS matters. The entire point of tank DPS and maximizing it is that you don't sacrifice your tanking capabilities for your DPS. If you need more health for that particular encounter, you don't just say "screw it!" and wear full STR accessories. You trade VIT for STR as needed. If you are compromising your group's DPS or your healer's DPS, then you aren't optimizing your DPS correctly. It's not only important in world first progression, it's important for getting the turn over as quick as possible and dealing with less mechanics. That, in itself, is a form of mitigation. So don't just think because you're a tank you can slack on DPS, that same argument can be made for healers not DPSing because their primary job is to heal. If you aren't dead, and they aren't doing anything else, they should be DPSing. You have NO excuse because tanking and DPSing go hand in hand (you're going to have to hit the boss to tank it).

Hit the boss, yes, and it may be just my view as someone who mains Paladin, since Warriors actually mitigate damage through self healing too from their DPS, but I've seen more bonus from being a better defense than offense. But as I said, Warriors benefit defensively from being better DPS than Paladins. If all the reason for me being a better DPS is to push mechanics faster, then I look to my DPS. The only time I will sacrifice my defensive aspects is when the fight is just flat out trivial(i.e. HM farms). Otherwise, the benefit of a little DPS increase that I get for sacrificing so much of my HP is just trivial.

Yes as a tank, your role is to keep your party from taking damage and to make the healer's job of keeping you alive easier, so again I point out a dead enemy cannot damage you or your team which contributes directly to your role as a tank, therefore the damage that a tank can do is very relevant to their role.
Should a tank forego the responsibilities of their role to try to just dish out big hits, of course not, but the damage that a tank can deal out while doing their job and how much that contributes to the success of their team is actually a big deal.

It is not just the responsibility of DPS to damage things and try to kill enemies as quickly as possible, it is everyone's because enemies dying faster contributes to the success of all the roles. A perfect example of this is a WHM going cleric stance and holy spamming a large group of enemies because by killing them faster it prevents more damage than they would have been able to heal if they focused solely on that. Sometimes the best way of reaching a goal is not the direct route.

I understand your point. It is quite valid, and I'm not going to say otherwise. I just feel that a loss of 1.5-2k points of my HP pool by changing trinkets is not worth it, especially when all I'll see with equivalent trinkets in DPS is about an increase of 50 in my attacks. I get that it adds up, but it's still a small amount in the scheme of things. About the only time I'm willing to do this are old fights. But, also, I feel this may be a difference in the styles of tanks. Warriors get more mitigation from more damage after all.

[Alphras]

And you don't know what Defiance does apparently. It's not +25% healing, it's +20%. However, I must thank you for bringing my horrible oversight to my attention, if only inadvertently. Defiance is actually not better. It's worse. +20% healing is not interchangeable with -20% damage taken.

Of course I know that (lol). I just pointed out how the damage reduction effect translates, since you did seem to think that the +25% HP and the 20% DR are somehow different in terms of eHP and that defense buffs scale differently on PLD and WAR.

Edit: But since you already know that, the statement "Defiance being slightly better with the HP pool increase" seems really strange to me.

[TouchandFeel]

I understand your point. It is quite valid, and I'm not going to say otherwise. I just feel that a loss of 1.5-2k points of my HP pool by changing trinkets is not worth it, especially when all I'll see with equivalent trinkets in DPS is about an increase of 50 in my attacks. I get that it adds up, but it's still a small amount in the scheme of things. About the only time I'm willing to do this are old fights. But, also, I feel this may be a difference in the styles of tanks. Warriors get more mitigation from more damage after all.

The reason myself and others have brought up tank dps is the disparity between the two when in tank stance. We were not debating the pros and cons of creating a str/dps build tank, that is happening in other threads. Whether or not a slight dps increase for hp tradeoff through gear is justified will depend more on the individual tank, the content they are doing and the other players they are doing the content with.

I have a problem with the dps disparity because the two tanks, as of 2.1 have pretty much the same level of survivability, accomplished through different means but still equitable. So their defensive capabilities are on par with each other, but their offensive capabilities are not. Now since dps directly factors into the self-heal mitigation of a WAR, I don't want to see them nerfed in that respect. As I stated in a post earlier in this thread, what I would like to see is a damage buff to PLD that only affects them when they are in ShO, such as making Spirits Within ignore the ShO damage penalty just like Inner Beast does since those are the closest dps ability equivalents I could find between the two. Also something like the "porcupine" idea that was presented earlier in the thread would increase PLD tanks stance dps a bit while still staying very thematic to PLD.

[Ceodore]

Of course I know that (lol). I just pointed out how the damage reduction effect translates, since you did seem to think that the +25% HP and the 20% DR are somehow different in terms of eHP and that defense buffs scale differently on PLD and WAR.

Edit: But since you already know that, the statement "Defiance being slightly better with the HP pool increase" seems really strange to me.

You're right, and it was strange, and it was actually wrong, and quite the opposite. The buffs are actually unequal though, with Shield Oath being slightly better than Defiance. The +25% hp and the damage reduction were not what I was trying to compare, it was Defiance's +20 healing and Shield Oath's - 20% damage I was comparing, and quite inadequately comparing I might add, with a very wrong outcome in my comparisons.

[Donjo]

Also, tank DPS matters. ... It's not only important in world first progression, it's important for getting the turn over as quick as possible and dealing with less mechanics. That, in itself, is a form of mitigation. So don't just think because you're a tank you can slack on DPS, that same argument can be made for healers not DPSing because their primary job is to heal. If you aren't dead, and they aren't doing anything else, they should be DPSing. You have NO excuse because tanking and DPSing go hand in hand (you're going to have to hit the boss to tank it).

Let's make some numbers appear. You're in a high level instance, fighting a boss. You and your Co-Tank are running mitigation builds. Each of your DPS are putting out approximately 500 DPS. You and your Co-Tank are each putting out 200. Since you're beefy and survivable, both of your healers have many chances to throw DPS spells out. Let's say that they're each putting out 40 DPS, which takes into account misses.

This is a total of (500 x 4) + (200 x 2) + (40 x 2) = 2480 Party DPS.

Now, let's say that both you and your Co-Tank decide that you're surviving more than well enough in the fight, so you're going to go all in on STR. You both manage to increase your DPS by 10%. You're now both tossing out 220. However, your healers now need to work harder to keep you both alive. They can't DPS as much. They're now contributing 30 DPS to the fight each. The reality is probably lower, but let's highball them anyway.

This is a total of (500 x 4) + (220 x 2) + (30 x 2) = 2500 Party DPS.

Your efforts at stacking STR have increased your group's DPS by 0.8%. To this, I ask: How much faster will this really end the encounter? You'll end the fight 0.8% faster. You'll end trash fights that go for an average of 1 minute less than a second faster. But, bosses are what's important here. Let's take a 10 minute fight. You've ended the fight 4.8 seconds faster. However, fights these days are even longer than that. Let's go 13. It ends 6 seconds faster. So, yes. It adds up eventually. However, what you'll end up mitigating by missing those very few seconds is quite random. It could just be an autoattack. It could be the Tank Buster(tm). Or, it could be the actual Enrage mechanic of the fight. Some fights are indeed heavily scripted, but human performance is variable enough that you'll never finish a fight at an exact minute and second every time. So, that means that contributing 0.8% more damage to the group at the expense of more than 0.8% of your survivability for the purpose of mitigation has an element of uncertainty. Sort of like... Parry! You never know when a Parry is going to happen and you never know exactly what the boss would have done to you if it were alive for another 6 second. However, Parry can happen over the entire course of most fights but this only happens at the end. If your Parries in a fight would prevent an amount of damage equal to the amount of damage the boss would deal to you in 6 seconds, then it's smarter to use Parry than Strength. Regardless, defending this method of mitigation is, as I've said in a previous thread, hypocritical of the argument that Parry is not worth using.

But, no matter what, and this needs to be made absolutely clear, the benefit of the Tanks dealing 10% more damage each in the full party situations where you're deeming it most useful is so, so small in comparison to the survivability they lose that there is literally no reason to sacrifice so much survivability.

[Ceodore]

I have a problem with the dps disparity because the two tanks, as of 2.1 have pretty much the same level of survivability, accomplished through different means but still equitable. So their defensive capabilities are on par with each other, but their offensive capabilities are not. Now since dps directly factors into the self-heal mitigation of a WAR, I don't want to see them nerfed in that respect. As I stated in a post earlier in this thread, what I would like to see is a damage buff to PLD that only affects them when they are in ShO, such as making Spirits Within ignore the ShO damage penalty just like Inner Beast does since those are the closest dps ability equivalents I could find between the two. Also something like the "porcupine" idea that was presented earlier in the thread would increase PLD tanks stance dps a bit while still staying very thematic to PLD.

Yeah, I saw the porcupine thing. It's a good idea, but it doesn't really feel like a "Paladin" thing. What I would rather see is something more along the lines of a stacking consumable. I don't believe a buff is necessary, because Wrath already does that, and it would just feel like a copy cat skill. Here's my submission. Take away the Cooldowns on Spirits Within and Circle of Scorn. Instead, make them consume the stacking consumable. This will require a bit more maintenance on Spirits Within, since you will have to make a choice between either more DPS, or saving the stacks for the silence for an important mechanic. Leave the skills as off global cooldown still, since the balance is now the consumables. Also, leave the HP variance on Spirits Within. This would make it have some balance and not be overpowered when compared to Inner Beast, but also still strong.

Now, those changes would be a gross imbalance between Warriors and Paladins. So I'd like to see Warriors lose the global cooldowns on Inner Beast and Steel Cyclone, allowing them to be used between skills too.

So what you now have are two tanks with slightly similar, but at the same time very different mechanics. The people who want more tactical difficulty on Paladins get it, as now you can't just throw the silence out there without some work being put in first. It also means that both tanks have an AOE taunt skill of not so much equal power, but different capabilities. Warriors get their two most critical skills off the global cooldown, meaning Inner Beast can be used more often, resulting in a stronger self healing tank. Then, in exchange for self healing, they can do more AOE agro instead.

Also, take the combo interruption off of Overpower, but take away Flash as a cross class ability. (inb4 rage at loss of Flash) TP maintenance is and always has been an aspect of Warriors. It's time though to really separate these two tanks. Warrior should be more physical themed where Paladin should be more magical themed in their styles.

Edit: Call our stacking consumable something like Halone's Tears or something. And since warriors get a fancy swirling buff around them when they reach 5 stacks, I'd like to see glowy light wings! Purely for aesthetic purposes of course.

Another edit: Now, another aspect I was considering is the whole blocking thing. Since blocking is a pretty big part of our class mechanics. Instead of the buff just generating stacks based on skills used, have it generate a stack based on blocks, so long as Shield Oath is on. And whenever you get say 3 stacks, you can become "Blessed". This would greatly balance the skills based on the situation too. With mob pulls, you block more often, meaning you can use Circle of Scorn more for agro. However, I can see this being a draw back should the silence be needed on Spirits Within. But seriously, I'd give that up to use Rage of Halone more. That skill is pretty!

[SpookyGhost]

Now, let's say that both you and your Co-Tank decide that you're surviving more than well enough in the fight, so you're going to go all in on STR. You both manage to increase your DPS by 10%. You're now both tossing out 220. However, your healers now need to work harder to keep you both alive. They can't DPS as much.

If you are compromising your group's DPS or your healer's DPS, then you aren't optimizing your DPS correctly.

As an example:

Turn 5. Do you, as a PLD, need 8,000 HP to tank it without giving your healers heart attacks? No. You don't need that much HP. I'm going to go with a high number here because I've no idea what the actual HP threshold is for T5, but let's say you need about 7,000 HP to comfortably survive any DS + Crit Auto Attack. That is the maximum amount of HP you need for the turn, and the rest is essentially going to waste (no healer is going to be like "well, he's at 1,000 HP, I'll keep DPSing!"). So, what do we do with all that extra VIT? Throw it into STR, of course! See, the thing is, VIT actually has diminishing returns that vary from encounter to encounter. However, STR never actually hits a point where you have Too Much of it. That extra 1,000 HP is completely wasted because you're never going to sit at that HP after a big attack and not be healed up. I know a lot of people believe more HP = more healer DPSing, but that's just not how it works, especially not in this game where all the encounters are scripted and big attacks come on a timer.

So, even if the STR you gain only contributes as little as 0.8% group DPS, it's still better than a completely wasted chunk of VIT.