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  1. #1
    Player
    Sokerimuro's Avatar
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    Nov 2013
    Posts
    25
    Character
    Helena Falconhand
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Very good points all along the thread, and it is true that WAR and PLD are pretty much equal in their respective mitigations/eHP, at least on a factual numerical basis. In practice, both tanks have their own "niché", which differentiates them somewhat. (Physical vs. Magical damage handling mainly)

    Only thing I would add on the discussion with WAR vs. PLD is that Warrior can on occasional situations, especially in the case of a less skilled WAR, be more draining for the healer's mana. This being due to the fact that even though they take more factual healing through the increased healing trait of Defiance, they can "spike" a bit more. As is, sometimes (through a personal experience while healing) I have noticed that Warrior tends to drop low suddenly more often than a Paladin, which is completely logical. A mitigation tank vs. HP tank scenario, even though both take similar, or exactly the same as was pointed out earlier, time to die, other one takes more rounded hits and other one takes more straight hits to the face.

    Even though this does not change the actual numbers, it can be a difference between WHM casting Cure or Cure II, and the more it occurs the more strain can happen on healer's mana. This to emphasize the fact that WAR does take more focus to play right out of the box. (Not going for CD management which in turn is a high tactical/skill intensive play on PLDs part)

    And as there has been suggestions flying around about how to change PLD, I will throw out some of mine. Even though I think PLD is very fine as it is, I would not mind some extra interactive play on our part/some little fanciness. The following ideas to reflect on that.
    Oaths off the GCD. Manacost could and should stay, but the Oath dancing would add in itself a lot.

    Shield Swipe off the GCD, with a 15 second CD in it. Blocking an attack has a 10% chance to reset the recast timer of Shield Swipe. Dealing damage with a Shield Swipe gives Paladin a shield similar to Stoneskin/Galvanize, lasting for 5-10 seconds and absorbing damage equal to 5% of the Paladin’s total HP. This effect cannot occur more often than every 30-45 seconds.
    An ability that would add a small interaction to Paladin’s basic kit/rotation without altering core design much. The absorb granted by Shield Swipe gives PLD some additional interactive tools to deal with high magic damage, and in turn also prevents the ability to “be buried into a macro”. On the other hand, the shield occurs rarely so Shield Swipe is an additional Spirits Within/CoS, similar to BRDs Bloodletter.

    Another thing that could be fancy, I have always liked the Paladin design in different game systems as the protector and frontliner, but also as a tool of retribution. Shield Oath could have a “porcupine effect”, in that blocking an attack while in a Shield Oath deals damage to the attacker with a potency of 20. This damage is minor at best, similar to CoS DoT but it is there as an additional AoE tanking tool.
    Could go further and add a skill called, say, Reckoning. Maybe 180-300 second recast, duration 15 seconds. Would activate both Oaths at the same time, and allow PLD to benefit from both for the duration.

    My 2, and somewhat more, cents.
    (1)
    Last edited by Sokerimuro; 12-05-2014 at 07:22 PM.
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  2. #2
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    1,835
    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Sokerimuro View Post
    Shield Oath could have a “porcupine effect”, in that blocking an attack while in a Shield Oath deals damage to the attacker with a potency of 20. This damage is minor at best, similar to CoS DoT but it is there as an additional AoE tanking tool.
    You present some interesting ideas, but the one that really stood out to me was the one quoted above about a "porcupine" effect for ShO. I think this is really a neat idea as it would do two things that I would like. First off it adds a little extra dps to PLD while they are using ShO, which I feel they need. This coupled with making Spirits Within not be affected by the ShO damage reduction or HP% potency decrease would be a big help to bring them closer to where they should be. Also it has the side effect of increasing dps a decent amount when Bulwark is used, so it creates a correlative effect to the damage done by Vengeance. The potency may need to be upped seeing how Vengeance provides attacks of 50 potency, but then again maybe not. Having the effect tied to the shield and block, makes it feel very fitting to PLD. All in all a very good idea.
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  3. #3
    Player
    Sokerimuro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
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    25
    Character
    Helena Falconhand
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by TouchandFeel View Post
    You present some interesting ideas, but the one that really stood out to me was the one quoted above about a "porcupine" effect for ShO. I think this is really a neat idea as it would do two things that I would like. First off it adds a little extra dps to PLD while they are using ShO, which I feel they need. This coupled with making Spirits Within not be affected by the ShO damage reduction or HP% potency decrease would be a big help to bring them closer to where they should be. Also it has the side effect of increasing dps a decent amount when Bulwark is used, so it creates a correlative effect to the damage done by Vengeance. The potency may need to be upped seeing how Vengeance provides attacks of 50 potency, but then again maybe not. Having the effect tied to the shield and block, makes it feel very fitting to PLD. All in all a very good idea.
    Glad you like and picked up the same thing I was after, though I did not say it out originally: The synergy between this and our Bulwark ability.

    One other thing of note is also the build possibilities this type of idea would enroll: Buckler type of shields would bring some interesting possibilities with their much higher block chance, to trigger this damage more often with weaker mitigation opposed to Tower type where the powerful blocks get much more value out of Bulwark but conversely dropping the dps/threat output. With Kite type standing the balanced middle ground. Little things, little things.

    Basically, any changes PLD would get I feel should relate somehow to our shield. Because THAT is what makes us Paladins really, especially since the next upcoming tank is also a two-hander.
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  4. #4
    Player
    TouchandFeel's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Character
    Vespereaux Vaillantes
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 91
    Quote Originally Posted by Sokerimuro View Post
    Basically, any changes PLD would get I feel should relate somehow to our shield. Because THAT is what makes us Paladins really
    I'm in agreement, at least conceptually.
    I think that PLD should still get that final combo attack to come off riot blade and that a new sword attack or two is warranted with the increased level cap coming in the expansion.
    However, moving forward I would really like to see SE emphasize the difference between PLD and WAR by building on stylistic precedents already put somewhat in place.
    Plainly I would like them to make it more so that WAR defends by attacking (good example being Inner Beast) and PLD attacks by defending (sort of like shield swipe, but your Porcupine idea would be a better example) and also that WAR does more spread out heavy hits, while PLD does smaller more frequent hits. These differences are already somewhat there, but if they were emphasized more in an intelligent and balanced way I feel that it could really make the tanks feel and play in their own satisfyingly unique way.
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  5. #5
    Player
    Synestra's Avatar
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    Oct 2013
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    1,071
    Character
    Nel Synestra
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by Sokerimuro View Post
    Oaths off the GCD. Manacost could and should stay, but the Oath dancing would add in itself a lot.
    This is what i have been wanting to see aswell, just make it work like NiN's venoms(5s recast while being OGCD). SS could use some tweaking in pve as its currently pretty powerful in pvp but not super useful in pve, Riot could also use some kind of combo or then we simply need more skills that uses mana in general.
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