Possible Paladin Rework...

[Daniolaut]

Actually, it's almost always people trying to prove *me* wrong and me defending myself, generally by showing them that they don't know what they're talking about, like with you, over and over and over again.

Maybe because you fail at reading comprehension?

My initial statement:

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

your rebuttal

The only way that a WAR generates more enmity than a PLD is if they use their CDs properly .

So there you are simply wrong in your statement.

So not only does a proper WAR, even according to you, using proper buffs will keep threat, but also my initial statement stands that a WAR vs PLD in just straight threat generation a WAR wins again.

So your point is that WAR will hit harder with a single hit than PLD does? You seriously have no idea what "over time" means, do you? Taking a snapshot of a single hit doesn't mean shit, especially when the entire reason *why* a PLD generates more enmity over time than a WAR is because of the CDs and off-GCDs that you ignore.

Thus rendering this above statement incorrect and making you look bad. i'm not doing it you are.. sorry.

I recommend you learn wtf you're talking about before attempting to prove me wrong, rather than posting screenshots that only serve to prove that *you* don't know what you're talking about.Is absurd.

Again, the screen shots very specifically and in full support my initial statement.

And I never said they would. If you're just talking Overpower spam compared to Flash spam, Overpower spam wins handily. The difference is that, after Overpower spamming, a WAR has to sit there and do nothing while a PLD actually has the TP to do other stuff.

This is the issue that this thread is attempting to address and youre failing to grasp.

Also again.. a warrior just 'standing there' is a fail warrior. I never have tp issues on warrior, even while doing brayflox myth runs where i excessively use overpower to kill the mobs. Use flash or steel cyclone or something.. seriously. making other warriors look bad.

Overpower costs a good amount of TP because its every effective. We, as a group, minus you, are asking that since not only does flash -not- generate damage out put, that it at least be on par with Overpowers threat generation, even if that means it costs more. If you cant agree to that then thats your choice but to say that its not something that other people should expect i simply cant understand why you would feel that way. Anyskill that needs to be spammed in order to be effective is a skill that isnt useful as it should be.

I am not, nor have I ever, said that PLD can match a WAR on AoE enmity generation. WAR wins that fight handily. What I *have* said is that PLD AoE enmity isn't a problem. A PLD will be able to generate more than enough enmity with Flash sustainably, which is all that's needed.

So going back to the initial request...

If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

In conclusion

If a warrior doesnt need to use every last bit of tp to maintain aoe threat, imo, a paladin shouldnt have to use every last bit of mp to maintain threat. Riot Blade, imo, should be used to restore mp in fights where the PLD is constantly switching between stances, casting stoneskin often, or in long fights where mp could be an issue in general. If a PLD isnt able to generate enough threat after exhausting every bit of mp then the skill imo is not properly balanced. Especially if a equally geared warrior doesnt have to exhaust every bit of tp to maintain threat.

[Kitru]

Again, the screen shots very specifically and in full support my initial statement.

No, they don't. All you showed was a PLD hitting with Savage Blade and an auto-attack, a PLD hitting with Rage of Halone and an auto-attack, a WAR hitting with Skull Sunder and an auto-attack, and a WAR hitting with Butcher's Block an an auto-attack.

Let me break down your ignorance:

A PLD auto-attack and a WAR auto-attack are not the same thing. A PLD makes an auto-attack every 2.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed); a WAR makes an auto-attack very 3.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed). Even with every other piece of gear and stats identical, a WAR's auto-attack is going to throw up a number ~45% higher, but the contributions over time will be identical because a PLD will be making 45% more auto-attacks.

The only thing you're showing with SB, RoH, SS, and BB is that they have different potencies, as if that was the only thing that was a factor. You're completely missing the fact that PLD has a *way* stronger DPS CD (Unchained + Berserk are barely equal to FoF on its own), not to mention the fact that it gets an extra 50 pot/GCD off of the GCD compared to WAR's 12.5.

You can throw up pictures of a single attack paired with an auto-attack all you want, but it's not going to prove anything beyond your own ignorance. You could use the same methodology to argue that a DRG deals more damage than a MNK because a DRG can throw up a 1.3k hit while a MNK is going to manage ~700 (and, if you didn't know, MNK is the best DPS in the game atm; it beats out DRG handily), and you would be just as wrong.

[Daniolaut]

No, they don't. All you showed was a PLD hitting with Savage Blade and an auto-attack, a PLD hitting with Rage of Halone and an auto-attack, a WAR hitting with Skull Sunder and an auto-attack, and a WAR hitting with Butcher's Block an an auto-attack.

Let me break down your ignorance:

A PLD auto-attack and a WAR auto-attack are not the same thing. A PLD makes an auto-attack every 2.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed); a WAR makes an auto-attack very 3.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed). Even with every other piece of gear and stats identical, a WAR's auto-attack is going to throw up a number ~45% higher, but the contributions over time will be identical because a PLD will be making 45% more auto-attacks.


The only thing you're showing with SB, RoH, SS, and BB is that they have different potencies, as if that was the only thing that was a factor. You're completely missing the fact that PLD has a *way* stronger DPS CD (Unchained + Berserk are barely equal to FoF on its own), not to mention the fact that it gets an extra 50 pot/GCD off of the GCD compared to WAR's 12.5.

You can throw up pictures of a single attack paired with an auto-attack all you want, but it's not going to prove anything beyond your own ignorance. You could use the same methodology to argue that a DRG deals more damage than a MNK because a DRG can throw up a 1.3k hit while a MNK is going to manage ~700 (and, if you didn't know, MNK is the best DPS in the game atm; it beats out DRG handily), and you would be just as wrong.

Listen, and try to read this time.

Your first statement was that WAR doesnt generate as much threat as PLD. You then went on to contradict yourself that a war indeed does generate more threat. Either it does or does not, it cant be both. Again, if you were talking like a 15 hour fight where PLD could get hate over a WAR in aoe cause the WAR would exhaust all TP and pld could keep going longer cause of the MP/TP ratio's then MAYBE PLD could eventually have more threat.

Also in single target in a 15 hour fight where the PLD's auto attack against WAR's crit hit and STR bonus, a PLD MIGHT pull threat. I dont know, and i dont really care cause nothing will ever ever last that long.

Also your statement about people attacking you and you trying to just "defend" yourself.. is also incorrect. My initial post was in conjunction to the OP simply to ask that PLD become a more enjoyable job to play. You tried to refute my statement that WAR generated more threat on PLD which was completely off topic. So seriously, youre the one with a bone to pick not me. I'm just uncertain why you have such good information would waste it on situations that are off topic of a thread and use it to argue situations that would never arise in Eorzea..

[Kitru]

Your first statement was that WAR doesnt generate as much threat as PLD. You then went on to contradict yourself that a war indeed does generate more threat.

Apparently you don't really understand qualifying statements. Do you also have problems seeing shades of grey?

I have always said that the only way that a WAR generates more than a PLD is if the WAR uses their CDs properly. This is because, if you simply use everyone on CD for both tanks, using the appropriate high enmity rotation, a PLD generates noticeably more enmity/GCD than a WAR does. However, if you use the proper UBIR rotation rather than simply using everything on CD, the synergistic effects of said CD usage provides a large enough increase in enmity generation that it will eclipse the PLDs previous advantage.

I'm also quite curious as to how you still think that your posted images are even *remotely* applicable, beyond evidence that you really have no place being in this discussion in the first place.

[Daniolaut]

Apparently you don't really understand qualifying statements. Do you also have problems seeing shades of grey?

I have always said that the only way that a WAR generates more than a PLD is if the WAR uses their CDs properly. This is because, if you simply use everyone on CD for both tanks, using the appropriate high enmity rotation, a PLD generates noticeably more enmity/GCD than a WAR does. However, if you use the proper UBIR rotation rather than simply using everything on CD, the synergistic effects of said CD usage provides a large enough increase in enmity generation that it will eclipse the PLDs previous advantage.

I'm also quite curious as to how you still think that your posted images are even *remotely* applicable, beyond evidence that you really have no place being in this discussion in the first place.

On what grounds do you stand to make that statement. Simply saying some random bull crap numbers means nothing, when i have solid ingame information where WAR has more str and deals more damage than a PLD. Simply saying "auto attack" doesnt mean youre some holy saint and anyone holding a conversation in this thread is not permitted to speak.

Seriously you cant be helped nor even capable of holding a conversation.

If you were in fact right that 'overtime' pld generates more threat, i could care less because, you,
1: neglected to say how much time.
2: didnt state why, simply beyond saying "PLD's auto attack" and disregarding my statement about WAR's str bonus and crit bonus
3: and only made adolescent verbal attacks that only encouraged me to further want to disregard anything you have to say at all.

I did the opposite, I

1. Gave my opinion
2. attempted to stay on the threads topic
3. even used ingame stats and even pictures to help you follow along

If anyone doesnt belong here its you because you've done nothing but to stay off topic, argue, and insult other peoples opinions and ideas.

[SeraviEdalborez]

stuff

The novel thing about debates is that not everyone has to agree with you. And you can be wrong.

What I see is that you've seen a point of view and discarded it as irrelevant because it doesn't fit your perception of what these jobs do, regardless of what actually happens.

PLD does generate more enmity if both are using no cooldowns (stupid), or using cooldowns on cooldown. On an extremely basic level this is really evident why: WAR has to spend combos refreshing Maim, and occasionally spend a GCD on Inner Beast. Neither of which have an enmity modified (Defiance's innate enmity+ doesn't count because we're comparing it to PLD's identical enmity modifier on Shield Oath). Hate combo is 1x 3x 5x (total 9x) enmity modifier on the 3 moves. Non-hate is all 1x 1x 1x (total 3x).

So say a WAR refreshes maim every 3rd combo. We will even assume Maim is already up when we begin, so all WAR modifiers have 20% more damage:
WAR: SP>BB>BB - (3*1.2)>(9*1.2)*2 = 25.2
PLD: H>H>H - (9*3) = 27

PLD has generated 27x enmity modifier, WAR has generated 25.2x. WAR's "raw" enmity generation is worse than PLD.

Can break it down a step further and just apply that enmity modifier to total potency of those combos:

WAR: [(150+190+250) + (150+200+280)*2] *25.2 = 30744
PLD: [(150+200+260)*3] *27 = 49410

Where WAR gains the lead is smart use of Unchained Berserk (and no, smart use of cooldowns is not something automatically assumed because I rarely see any WARs use their burst opener properly). Unchained takes away their 25% damage reduction. Berserk is +50% attack power (not the same as FoF's "damage dealt", and slightly less potent). So using lazy and inaccurate math on my part:

(25.2*1.5)/.75 = 50.4

Even after accounting losing 1-2 GCDs to Pacify afterwards, it's pretty evident how WAR enmity explodes with proper usage.

You dismissed evidence against your claim because you didn't agree with it. Please think about it yourself before you reply again.

[Shref]

WAR: SP>BB>BB - (3*1.2)>(9*1.2)*2 = 25.2
PLD: H>H>H - (9*3) = 27

unless i misunderstand how the modifiers work, this math sounds very wrong.
you wouldn't simply add the modifiers in a combo. assuming my sources are right, from the combos you listed it would be:

WAR: (150+190+270)+1.2(150+3(100)+5(280))+1.2(150+3(100)+5(280)))=1.2(610+2220+2220)=5050
PLD: 3(150+3(100)+5(260))=3(150+300+1300)=4950

given, this doesn't factor in things like overpower/unchained/SC/Flash/Berserk for war or FoF/CoS/Flash for PLD. Or things like increased crits from defiance and IR or reduced slashing resistance from SP. but for being simple/lazy math, i believe its accurate.