Possible Paladin Rework...

[Giantbane]

This is my point entirely. WAR, to recover from Overpower spam, has to stand around doing nothing, whether they're in an ST or AoE scenario. PLD can keep just keep attacking because they don't use MP for anything else (Stoneskin, but you're not going to be using that in an AoE scenario).

From personal experience, the WAR is so far ahead in terms of damage and threat that the WAR will still be ahead in both if he just stands there.

I can hit berkserk>overpower spam or unchained>overpower spam (or UBIR>overpower spam if I'm not chaining groups together), and crush everyone else's threat in 6-8 overpowers such that it shows up as barely noticeable blips. Then I usually have enough TP left that I can safely switch to single target, using SC on cooldown to maintain. If my TP feels really stressed, I can use Flash if I am somehow in a situation mid-fight where I need extra threat, and then make use of the MP pool in the same way that the PLD can. It's not as effective as it is on a PLD, but it doesn't have to be because the WAR can use his MP or TP for AoE threat if he wants that extra flexibility.

I can empty my MP pool on a PLD and I'm not as far ahead as the WAR is. And since my AoE is entirely based on MP, then I am forced to switch to single target to maintain. Even then, I'm not sure either riot or halone is really doing that much better than a WAR standing around waiting for his TP to either overpower or combo->SC when available

The only possibility for the PLD to be considered on par is if the fight goes on long enough such that the WAR has difficulty managing his TP. But I don't know of any fights where this is an issue unless the WAR is being extremely careless with his TP. Can you point any out?

Either way, I'm going mostly off of experience, which obviously isn't very definitive. Do you have the latest values for threat generated by flash, overpower and SC? This probably warrants a more in depth analysis.

[Kitru]

Then I usually have enough TP left that I can safely switch to single target, using SC on cooldown to maintain.

And you'll still be short TP that entire time. To get back up to full, you're going to have to have empty GCDs. PLD *never* has to have empty GCDs, which is what I've been saying over and over and over.

Yes, if you know how to manage your TP, the cost of Overpower isn't going to be a major hindrance, but it is definitely something you have to play around with and avoid overusing specifically *because* it's expensive as hell. When you've got time to recover, it doesn't really matter, but as soon as you *don't*, you're going to see problems. Flash you can use with abandon, and it's not like it's ever hurting you.

Also, another point to consider, both tank's ranged attacks consume TP. When doing a large pull, a WAR is going to hurt their resource maintenance while grouping everything up whereas a PLD can throw Lobs without reducing their AoE enmity capability when everything is grouped up.

Even then, I'm not sure either riot or halone is really doing that much better than a WAR standing around waiting for his TP to either overpower or combo->SC when available

Damage wise, WAR definitely wins, because Flash doesn't do AoE damage. Enmity wise, it depends upon how many enemies are present since Riot Blade is ST. The more targets there are, the better Overpower spamming gets because it dilutes Riot Blade's contributions.

The only possibility for the PLD to be considered on par is if the fight goes on long enough such that the WAR has difficulty managing his TP.

T4. WP speed runs. There aren't that many in the current tier of content since mythflox is 1 trash pull>1 boss>1 trash pull> 1 boss, but in old school WP runs, as a WAR, you'd be running out of TP plenty often because there wasn't enough down time.

Gauntlets (prolonged encounters where you fight multiple groups in a row, without being able to engage them all at once and with no breaks in betwee), like t4 and WP speed runs, are the exact situations where PLD AoE enmity excels and WAR hits problems. WAR is perfectly fine when you've got plenty of time to regen TP by getting out of combat or standing around doing nothing, but when you've got to alternate between ST and AoE (or multiple groups of AoE that are not simultaneous), WAR starts having significant problems.

Do you have the latest values for threat generated by flash, overpower and SC? This probably warrants a more in depth analysis.

Flash is ~480 epot and is reduced by the tank stance damage penalties and increased by the enmity multipliers. It doesn't benefit from FoF though (I find it strange that the damage penalties reduce Flash's enmity gen but the damage bonuses don't; it's really weird, but I tested it out; an interesting side effect of this is that, because it's not based on damage dealt, when an enemy is immune to damage, Flash will generate the same amount of enmity it generates on anyone else) and can't crit. That puts it at 480 * .8 * 2 = 768 epot/use.

Overpower is 600 epot (120 * 5) and Steel Cyclone is 900 (200 / .75 * 3). If you're just talking Overpower spam, that's 600 * .75 * 2 = 900 epot/use. When you start adding in Maim and DPS CDs, it just gets worse, but Maim requires preparation (so you're not likely to have it when you're solidifying AoE enmity since you're only going to use ST attacks *after* the DPS isn't going to pull off of you) and DPS CDs operate under the assumption that you're not going to need them down the line.

The question, of course, is not "is WAR stronger than PLD for AoE". That's a foregone conclusion. It's like asking if MNK or BLM has better AoE damage. The question is whether PLD is weak enough on AoE *enmity* that it needs to be improved. PLD has more than enough such that it has no good reason to have issues so there's no real need for it. It could probably stand a bit of a buff, but it's not like WAR in 2.0.

The issue with PLD AoE is the complete and total lack of damage. Both tanks can generate more than enough AoE enmity to tank effectively, but WAR can actually contribute noticeable amounts of damage while a PLD just as the 25 pot/GCD from CoS. The enmity is fine. Yes, WAR's is better but that "better" is basically redundant.