Possible Paladin Rework...

[Daniolaut]

Please please please Square'Enix take note of this thread and make PLD fun/even with WAR.

I 'main-ed' PLD from 2.0 to 2.2. Upon 2.3 i 'main-ed' all 9 jobs. I found a new static that was looking for a warrior and i picked the job up.

Since playing warrior i see that warrior can not only do what PLD could do before warrior was reworked but since the rework it can now do much much more.

Warrior's Overpower is ... well way overpowered compared to PLD's flash.

I personally hate flash. The animation is horrid, and the enmity generation is useless until shield oath and even with shield oath its still a joke compared to overpower.

So not only does flash not generate as much threat as overpower it also doesnt deal damage. So here WAR doubles over PLD in aoe. If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

Circle of Scorn, Cover, and Shield Swipe all really need attention. I dont know how they can make these skills more useful without totally reworking them.

Shield Swipe, nearly no enemies outside of trash mobs are affected by pacification, and even trash mobs in the world only take a 6s pacification which is the time between one weapon skill to another anyway so the 6s pacification is 100% useless imo.

Cover, i've only found minor use for it in brayflox speed runs, on the second pull and the second boss.. only.. in the entire game. Thats sad imo.

Circle of Scorn is just not very good either. Its usefull since its off the GCD but thats probably the only nice thing about it aside from its actually really nice animation. I'm sure they, since SE doesnt want PLD's to deal massive damage, could cause it to deal some actual useful debuff such as bind..... actually that would make it next to perfect if it could bind.


Some ways to make PLD more interesting: (kinda repeating just whats been said.)

Shield Swipe: To work much like blood letter, Be off the GCD, deal 210 potency and either 1: have real enemies be affected by pacification or 2: increase enmity or some other useful effect.

FlashOut of combo after riot blade no blind affect and its normal enmity gain. In combo after riot blade cause blind and deal double enmity. (this combo is desperately needed imo for low level pld's/gld's who dont have shield oath.)

Circle of ScornAddtional Effect: Binds enemy.

Shield Bash Should not interrupt combos.

Shield/Sword OathYes please take them off the GCD or remove the MP cost.. one of the two. Its very silly to have both on the GCD and cost so much.

PLD generates more single target enmity than a warrior.

I play both PLD and WAR and this is just not true.

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

[Kitru]

If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

Flash generates roughly 480 ePot per use. Overpower is 600. Flash is basically free; Overpower costs an arm and a leg.

The enmity generation on Flash is fine. The only issue PLD has is low AoE damage.

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

lolnope. I suggest you actually do some math (or, hell, even check against an equally geared PLD) before making bad conjecture that the entire community already knows is wrong.

5 stack Wrath is ~5% increased damage (slightly less actually), and Defiance is a 25% damage penalty, which ends up reducing damage to 78.75%. Berserk is 40% for 20 seconds every 90 seconds with 5 seconds of no special attack damage (basically -66%), which is only a ~5.17% increase in damage over time. The only off-GCD attack WAR has is Brutal Swing, for 100 pot every 20.

As such, just doing BB spam and using Berserk on CD, a WAR is going to manage 1345.84 ePot/GCD over time (2 * .75 * 1.05 * 1.0517 * (83.33 + (150 + 200 * 3 + 280 * 5) / 3 + 100 / 8))).

Shield Oath is a 20% reduction in damage dealt, FoF is 30% for 30 secs every 90 secs for a 10% increase to total damage, and CoS and SW are both off-GCDs that provide 25 pot/GCD.

As such, with RoH spam and FoF/SW/CoS on CD, a PLD will manage 1437.33 epot/GCD (2 * .8 * 1.1 * (83.33 + 25 + 25 + (150 + 200 * 3 + 260 * 5) / 3)).

The only way that a WAR generates more enmity than a PLD is if they use their CDs properly (optimal UBIR) and are using the SE>BB>BB high enmity rotation. In every other case, WAR is going to generate less.

[Daniolaut]

stuff all the time only stuff

Kitru do you even play FFXIV? All i ever see you doing on the forums is -attempting- to prove people wrong. Seriously

I did an HIJKLMNOP test and put my CDEFG on and added WTFDOUEVENFFXIV to my PLD and WAR and here are my results, you CANNOT argue these numbers so go away. (i70 giantsgall nq from skirmish in 1.0 on war vs i70+i100 {sword shield})

PICTURES so you cant get confused!!

This Paladin in shield oath!






This is Warrior in Defiance!




Same character! same gear! except PLD has better gear seeing as the shield is i100

WAR was about 1/6 crit hits where as PLD was 1/10 or so. Roughly I'm not going to spend all day hitting a freaking dummy to prove a point. (Auto attack was included in these ratios.)

I even made sure to include the auto attack.

Also both PLD and WAR are 30 points in vit. WAR's gain an automatic str bonus over PLD.

So non refutable WAR deals more damage thus gains more enmity over PLD. Thanks

What now??


Edit: i100 shield oops.

Note:

Your conversation with Giantbane is also ridiculous. this statement:

"It's getting kind of old to see PLDs whinging on about Flash and about how amazing Overpower is when they're completely ignoring the fact that Overpower is expensive as hell which is *why* it's so strong."

Is absurd. I cant think of a single pull in this entire game where the length a PLD can flash in relation to a WAR using overpower would lose threat because of loss of TP where a PLD would eventually win the threat race.

Flash is trash and needs to be on par with Overpower's threat generation. Never, ever, ever will PLD win a threat race where there are dps actually attacking the mobs.. that statement is absurd beyond absurdity.

[Daniolaut]

Actually, it's almost always people trying to prove *me* wrong and me defending myself, generally by showing them that they don't know what they're talking about, like with you, over and over and over again.

Maybe because you fail at reading comprehension?

My initial statement:

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

your rebuttal

The only way that a WAR generates more enmity than a PLD is if they use their CDs properly .

So there you are simply wrong in your statement.

So not only does a proper WAR, even according to you, using proper buffs will keep threat, but also my initial statement stands that a WAR vs PLD in just straight threat generation a WAR wins again.

So your point is that WAR will hit harder with a single hit than PLD does? You seriously have no idea what "over time" means, do you? Taking a snapshot of a single hit doesn't mean shit, especially when the entire reason *why* a PLD generates more enmity over time than a WAR is because of the CDs and off-GCDs that you ignore.

Thus rendering this above statement incorrect and making you look bad. i'm not doing it you are.. sorry.

I recommend you learn wtf you're talking about before attempting to prove me wrong, rather than posting screenshots that only serve to prove that *you* don't know what you're talking about.Is absurd.

Again, the screen shots very specifically and in full support my initial statement.

And I never said they would. If you're just talking Overpower spam compared to Flash spam, Overpower spam wins handily. The difference is that, after Overpower spamming, a WAR has to sit there and do nothing while a PLD actually has the TP to do other stuff.

This is the issue that this thread is attempting to address and youre failing to grasp.

Also again.. a warrior just 'standing there' is a fail warrior. I never have tp issues on warrior, even while doing brayflox myth runs where i excessively use overpower to kill the mobs. Use flash or steel cyclone or something.. seriously. making other warriors look bad.

Overpower costs a good amount of TP because its every effective. We, as a group, minus you, are asking that since not only does flash -not- generate damage out put, that it at least be on par with Overpowers threat generation, even if that means it costs more. If you cant agree to that then thats your choice but to say that its not something that other people should expect i simply cant understand why you would feel that way. Anyskill that needs to be spammed in order to be effective is a skill that isnt useful as it should be.

I am not, nor have I ever, said that PLD can match a WAR on AoE enmity generation. WAR wins that fight handily. What I *have* said is that PLD AoE enmity isn't a problem. A PLD will be able to generate more than enough enmity with Flash sustainably, which is all that's needed.

So going back to the initial request...

If flash dealt twice the enmity that it currently does then it would match up to war and wouldnt need to be spammed and would be an effective skill.

In conclusion

If a warrior doesnt need to use every last bit of tp to maintain aoe threat, imo, a paladin shouldnt have to use every last bit of mp to maintain threat. Riot Blade, imo, should be used to restore mp in fights where the PLD is constantly switching between stances, casting stoneskin often, or in long fights where mp could be an issue in general. If a PLD isnt able to generate enough threat after exhausting every bit of mp then the skill imo is not properly balanced. Especially if a equally geared warrior doesnt have to exhaust every bit of tp to maintain threat.

[Kitru]

Again, the screen shots very specifically and in full support my initial statement.

No, they don't. All you showed was a PLD hitting with Savage Blade and an auto-attack, a PLD hitting with Rage of Halone and an auto-attack, a WAR hitting with Skull Sunder and an auto-attack, and a WAR hitting with Butcher's Block an an auto-attack.

Let me break down your ignorance:

A PLD auto-attack and a WAR auto-attack are not the same thing. A PLD makes an auto-attack every 2.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed); a WAR makes an auto-attack very 3.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed). Even with every other piece of gear and stats identical, a WAR's auto-attack is going to throw up a number ~45% higher, but the contributions over time will be identical because a PLD will be making 45% more auto-attacks.

The only thing you're showing with SB, RoH, SS, and BB is that they have different potencies, as if that was the only thing that was a factor. You're completely missing the fact that PLD has a *way* stronger DPS CD (Unchained + Berserk are barely equal to FoF on its own), not to mention the fact that it gets an extra 50 pot/GCD off of the GCD compared to WAR's 12.5.

You can throw up pictures of a single attack paired with an auto-attack all you want, but it's not going to prove anything beyond your own ignorance. You could use the same methodology to argue that a DRG deals more damage than a MNK because a DRG can throw up a 1.3k hit while a MNK is going to manage ~700 (and, if you didn't know, MNK is the best DPS in the game atm; it beats out DRG handily), and you would be just as wrong.

[Daniolaut]

No, they don't. All you showed was a PLD hitting with Savage Blade and an auto-attack, a PLD hitting with Rage of Halone and an auto-attack, a WAR hitting with Skull Sunder and an auto-attack, and a WAR hitting with Butcher's Block an an auto-attack.

Let me break down your ignorance:

A PLD auto-attack and a WAR auto-attack are not the same thing. A PLD makes an auto-attack every 2.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed); a WAR makes an auto-attack very 3.2 secs or so (depending upon weapon speed). Even with every other piece of gear and stats identical, a WAR's auto-attack is going to throw up a number ~45% higher, but the contributions over time will be identical because a PLD will be making 45% more auto-attacks.


The only thing you're showing with SB, RoH, SS, and BB is that they have different potencies, as if that was the only thing that was a factor. You're completely missing the fact that PLD has a *way* stronger DPS CD (Unchained + Berserk are barely equal to FoF on its own), not to mention the fact that it gets an extra 50 pot/GCD off of the GCD compared to WAR's 12.5.

You can throw up pictures of a single attack paired with an auto-attack all you want, but it's not going to prove anything beyond your own ignorance. You could use the same methodology to argue that a DRG deals more damage than a MNK because a DRG can throw up a 1.3k hit while a MNK is going to manage ~700 (and, if you didn't know, MNK is the best DPS in the game atm; it beats out DRG handily), and you would be just as wrong.

Listen, and try to read this time.

Your first statement was that WAR doesnt generate as much threat as PLD. You then went on to contradict yourself that a war indeed does generate more threat. Either it does or does not, it cant be both. Again, if you were talking like a 15 hour fight where PLD could get hate over a WAR in aoe cause the WAR would exhaust all TP and pld could keep going longer cause of the MP/TP ratio's then MAYBE PLD could eventually have more threat.

Also in single target in a 15 hour fight where the PLD's auto attack against WAR's crit hit and STR bonus, a PLD MIGHT pull threat. I dont know, and i dont really care cause nothing will ever ever last that long.

Also your statement about people attacking you and you trying to just "defend" yourself.. is also incorrect. My initial post was in conjunction to the OP simply to ask that PLD become a more enjoyable job to play. You tried to refute my statement that WAR generated more threat on PLD which was completely off topic. So seriously, youre the one with a bone to pick not me. I'm just uncertain why you have such good information would waste it on situations that are off topic of a thread and use it to argue situations that would never arise in Eorzea..

[Kitru]

Your first statement was that WAR doesnt generate as much threat as PLD. You then went on to contradict yourself that a war indeed does generate more threat.

Apparently you don't really understand qualifying statements. Do you also have problems seeing shades of grey?

I have always said that the only way that a WAR generates more than a PLD is if the WAR uses their CDs properly. This is because, if you simply use everyone on CD for both tanks, using the appropriate high enmity rotation, a PLD generates noticeably more enmity/GCD than a WAR does. However, if you use the proper UBIR rotation rather than simply using everything on CD, the synergistic effects of said CD usage provides a large enough increase in enmity generation that it will eclipse the PLDs previous advantage.

I'm also quite curious as to how you still think that your posted images are even *remotely* applicable, beyond evidence that you really have no place being in this discussion in the first place.

[Giantbane]

I play both PLD and WAR and this is just not true.

A WAR doing just Butchers Block combo and a PLD doing just Rage of Halone combo, WAR generates more threat due to crit hits from wrath being at 5 stacks.

Defiance is -25%, Shield Oath is -20%, crit can't make up for that. PLD also has much strong off GCD moves that should be included in base threat generated. EDIT: Kitru beat me to it

Kitru corrected me earlier, the WAR *can* generate more threat. But the WAR pulls ahead due to the ability to stack buffs and generate an insane amount of threat during unchained, berserk & internal release.

It should be noted that in order to generate max threat, the WAR needs to be limiting which debuffs it applies. SP>BB>BB will mean you drop SP for a few seconds per rotation. SP>BB means 100% up time on SP, but you generate much less threat. Both of those means losing the SE debuff entirely. SE>BB for 100% up time on SE or SE>BB>BB for max threat are other options, but the result is everyone taking more damage since you aren't maintaining the SP debuff. BB spam is only for terrible WARs that would be better off playing PLD. PLD is able to maintain threat and the halone debuff in one combo. No trade off, so you get max threat and max debuff all the time no matter what.

Either way, it makes no difference whatsoever. Both classes can generate so much more threat than any other class you should need to worry about (save a WHM that spams medica 2 all day and can't find his shroud button), that it's sort of a moot point. As long as you hold threat, you don't get any bonus points for holding 10% more threat than the other guy.

And it wasn't the real point I was trying to make. The imbalance is AoE threat and damage, where the PLD is currently thoroughly outclassed by the WAR in both areas. PLD could really use some love there.

[Kitru]

And it wasn't the real point I was trying to make. The imbalance is AoE threat and damage, where the PLD is currently thoroughly outclassed by the WAR in both areas. PLD could really use some love there.

PLD isn't really outclassed by WAR for AoE threat. AoE damage, definitely, but not threat (PLD has worse burst AoE enmity, but, over time, it's basically a wash; and PLD can actually maintain AoE enmity for longer than to Flashes' negligible cost). Flash is weaker than either SC or Overpower on a per use basis, but, as has been said over and over and over again, Flash is basically free: it costs MP rather than TP, and it doesn't even cost that much MP (you can spam 9-10 Flashes before you run out of mp and it will have no effect upon your ST rotation viability whatsoever). The lower effectiveness of Flash on a per use basis is the price you pay for having an AoE enmity generator that you can spam with no concern at all.

It's getting kind of old to see PLDs whinging on about Flash and about how amazing Overpower is when they're completely ignoring the fact that Overpower is expensive as hell which is *why* it's so strong.

[Giantbane]

PLD isn't really outclassed by WAR for AoE threat. AoE damage, definitely, but not threat (PLD has worse burst AoE enmity, but, over time, it's basically a wash; and PLD can actually maintain AoE enmity for longer than to Flashes' negligible cost). Flash is weaker than either SC or Overpower on a per use basis, but, as has been said over and over and over again, Flash is basically free: it costs MP rather than TP, and it doesn't even cost that much MP (you can spam 9-10 Flashes before you run out of mp and it will have no effect upon your ST rotation viability whatsoever). The lower effectiveness of Flash on a per use basis is the price you pay for having an AoE enmity generator that you can spam with no concern at all.

It's getting kind of old to see PLDs whinging on about Flash and about how amazing Overpower is when they're completely ignoring the fact that Overpower is expensive as hell which is *why* it's so strong.

I think AoE threat is like single target with the WAR. The ability to have buffs effect overpower, and the ability for overpower to crit is what pushes it so far ahead. You can even slot Flash if you're that worried about your resources to ease the cost. Although, you know very well that this really isn't necessary. The combination of overpower and SC means there's no need to actually flash anything if your resources are stressed, you can just stand there and refresh TP and still have a threat lead. Not to mention, overpower also isn't all that expensive if you've got a little time to recover after its use. If you're talking about using it in the middle of a long boss fight with few breaks, you may need to be careful about your TP, but otherwise it's not going to be an issue.

And there is a benefit to having it be TP based. For groups where you get a little break in between, TP restores much faster than MP. WAR has the advantage if you split groups up at all and don't pull everything. The PLD needs to spam riot combo if they empty their MP pool, or they won't have enough MP for the next group. On the WAR, even if you completely empty your TP, you'll probably have it back to half full by the time you get to the next group. And even if I find that I really need to conserve, it's usually just fine to switch to single target skills and throw out the occasional SC when wrath is full.

Anyhow, I *finally* got my PLD to 50 and it's really been night and day. I find the WAR's resources & threat much easier to manage in AoE situations due to the ability to be able to pull so far ahead up front and the faster speed at which TP is restored in between pulls. Oh, and you're doing a ton of damage as the WAR, so you kill stuff faster too.

I'm not saying that PLD needs the same AoE killing power and threat gen as the WAR, but there should be more parity.