1% drop rates... a thought expriment.

[Giantbane]

Still haven't exactly provided an answer to my questions though. I am genuinely interested in knowing what you plan on doing with the weapons that's why, given that their purpose is to help push you further into Coil. And again, if it's purely for the sake of having them, you're not providing a decent argument as to why it should be a fast process when it would screw with progression steps for people that do use said weapons for their intended raid benefits.

Their purpose is to help you kill stuff. Anything. Isn't limited to coil (although it does help in coil). Faster daily runs. Easier to help others with trials or EX primals. Will help in CT. Will help for coil pickup groups. Anything. This is a progression MMO. If it makes you stronger, it's part of the core gameplay.

Besides, I didn't say anything about it being a fast process. I said that it should be a more consistent process. Those are two different things.

[Welsper59]

Their purpose is to help you kill stuff. Anything. Isn't limited to coil (although it does help in coil). Faster daily runs. Easier to help others with trials or EX primals. Will help in CT. Will help for coil pickup groups. Anything. This is a progression MMO. If it makes you stronger, it's part of the core gameplay.

Besides, I didn't say anything about it being a fast process. I said that it should be a more consistent process. Those are two different things.

So why aren't things like the i90 Zenith relic, which is very easy to get, as well as the i95 Levi Ex weapons, which are also very easy to get, good enough to kill stuff with? Heck, the i95 Wave weapons are intended to get you through t7 to get the i100 weathered weapons. Meaning, anything outside of Coil is absolutely dominated by the Wave weapon.

When the intent of an item is merely meant to be a side option, and one that is ON LEVEL with endgame raid upgrades, having it be consistent (possible to be planned for) makes it mandatory to the player base. While you might think that's fine, it's ridiculous from a design stance. Why would you make an equal alternative to something that is very difficult to obtain from the main endgame source, obtainable consistently from something you could do without end? Mind you, this is only referring to the content when it's new (as when CT2 is released, we'll have a chance for the UAT to drop there).

One popular solution people tend to think would work is raising the ilvl of the Coil weapon in response to that. To that, I'd say they shouldn't do that due to stat inflation. We're raising in ilvl very quick as is. The point though is that things have a reason to be. The mirror upgrade is basically like saying you just won a T7 weapon from doing Levi Ex. Currently, it really doesn't make sense to streamline the process into a predictable outcome.

[Giantbane]

Nice way to prove my point

uhh ... what?

and tokens for what ? a single mirror ?

Isn't that obvious? 30% drop rate on tokens and you need 30 of them is a better way to handle this than putting a single item on a 1% drop rate. Or adjust for whatever. Even that's too low for my tastes, but it's a better way of handling things if you really want them to take a while and still have some random factor to it.

Hell, I think the weapon drop rates are too random. I'd much prefer if they split it into tank/dps/healer tokens with a 25%/50%/25% drop rate (to reflect group makeup). Especially when they add new jobs. It's going to get worse.

if it's for alts classes you don't *need* the mirror. If it's for your main class, you have faster ways to improve your dps than a glow on a secondary weapon.
Also, yoshida already stated that the players were underestimating the real drop rates. Drama everyday.

... once again it's all but needed. It's a sub-par weapon in 2.2 patch to begin with. There is no need to get it. Ramuh weapons will be rare too. Will you complain again about an additional loot (Ramuh's loot being accessories) ? Because you know, mirrors are additional loots. Devs were never obliged to put them in the game

Yup, all of that is garbage, lazy design that's outdated by 10 years.

[Kuwagami]

uhh ... what?

Nah ignore it, I misread totally

other stuff

should we *once again* fall in the endless "devs are lazy they put RNG" vs "players want shinies that are meant to be rare" ?

Ok, I'll listen to your suggestion to make something rare (I mean, really rare, something you're happy to get or become insane if you try to farm for it) while not relying on RNG. My bet is you can't.


or maybe you thought that the mirrors were an upgrade for the wave weapons that everyone was supposed to get at some point. If that's the case you were wrong. They're meant as a bonus

[Giantbane]

So why aren't things like the i90 Zenith relic, which is very easy to get, as well as the i95 Levi Ex weapons, which are also very easy to get, good enough to kill stuff with? Heck, the i95 Wave weapons are intended to get you through t7 to get the i100 weathered weapons. Meaning, anything outside of Coil is absolutely dominated by the Wave weapon.

When the intent of an item is merely meant to be a side option, and one that is ON LEVEL with endgame raid upgrades, having it be consistent (possible to be planned for) makes it mandatory to the player base. While you might think that's fine, it's ridiculous from a design stance. Why would you make an equal alternative to something that is very difficult to obtain from the main endgame source, obtainable consistently from something you could do without end? Mind you, this is only referring to the content when it's new (as when CT2 is released, we'll have a chance for the UAT to drop there).

One popular solution people tend to think would work is raising the ilvl of the Coil weapon in response to that. To that, I'd say they shouldn't do that due to stat inflation. We're raising in ilvl very quick as is. The point though is that things have a reason to be. The mirror upgrade is basically like saying you just won a T7 weapon from doing Levi Ex. Currently, it really doesn't make sense to streamline the process into a predictable outcome.

UAT is better because you can upgrade it to i110. You could hand out tidal wave weapons for zoning into the Levi X fight and that wouldn't change it.

Acquiring gear is a strong part of the game. When you start to tell too many people that they can't have gear "just because" (RNG), they're going to get tired of it eventually. That's not good for the game, and it's really lazy design.

[Welsper59]

UAT is better because you can upgrade it to i110. You could hand out tidal wave weapons for zoning into the Levi X fight and that wouldn't change it.

Acquiring gear is a strong part of the game. When you start to tell too many people that they can't have gear "just because" (RNG), they're going to get tired of it eventually. That's not good for the game, and it's really lazy design.

The weathered weapon is intended to be used though... it's not a side upgrade or anything. It changes it A LOT because it no longer becomes worth acquiring besides something to use up an inventory space until you upgrade it. They might as well just get rid of the Weathered weapon entirely and only have the upgraded i110 weapon for the t8/9 reward. Why bother with the Weathered coil weapons, which have a lockout to it, when you can just spam the hell out of Levi Ex... This would make the Tidal weapons essentially mandatory to acquire for most endgame FC. How is that not changing anything?

RNG is an RPGs bread and butter when it comes to system. If you don't like the system, or find it detrimental enough to hate the game (especially when it's not even very prevalent in this one), you're not exactly a valid source of criticism when a game dev decides to put it in. You may not like it, but that kinda points out that you're not an intended audience/target for the game (in the long term). Using comments like "lazy design" only points out that you just don't know much about what to expect from the genre. From tradition, it's like going into an FPS game and complaining that you die too quickly to headshots. It's an element that the genre tends to follow. Not understanding design choice also reduces the validity of negative comments. You're more than welcome to share them, but unless you understand things well, you're more than likely in-the-wrong to think the way you do. Of course, you could still be right about things, but unless you provide a solid argument for it, no one has a reason to truly believe it.

[Giantbane]

Nah ignore it, I misread totally



should we *once again* fall in the endless "devs are lazy they put RNG" vs "players want shinies that are meant to be rare" ?

Ok, I'll listen to your suggestion to make something rare (I mean, really rare, something you're happy to get or become insane if you try to farm for it) while not relying on RNG. My bet is you can't.

Why would you want to make something particularly desirable that rare? Very few of your paying customers get to enjoy it. You'll probably end up annoying more players that can't have it than you'll please by having it be a rare item. Sound like a high risk, low reward design.

Besides, there's nothing particularly special about the tidal weapons. Either the stats or the looks. So it makes very little sense for anyone to try to make it "rare". It's an inferior alternative to animus or weathered because it can't be upgraded further.

I don't believe they're using mirrors to make tidal weapons rare, anyway. It's a carrot on a stick for those who choose to chase it. Keep Levi EX as relevant content for longer. Get people to keep running it after they've gotten their weapon to give others an opportunity to get a weapon too. But I believe it's a bad way to set up the carrot and stick because the results can vary so wildly. You could be done after 1 run, or not finish it in 1000 runs. If they don't get their carrot, they're going to get tired of chasing things eventually.

[Giantbane]

The weathered weapon is intended to be used though... it's not a side upgrade or anything. It changes it A LOT because it no longer becomes worth acquiring besides something to use up an inventory space until you upgrade it. They might as well just get rid of the Weathered weapon entirely and only have the upgraded i110 weapon for the t8/9 reward. Why bother with the Weathered coil weapons, which have a lockout to it, when you can just spam the hell out of Levi Ex... This would make the Tidal weapons essentially mandatory to acquire for most endgame FC. How is that not changing anything?

It's a matter of time. Most statics are smart enough to know that they'll get to tier 8 faster if they spam the hell out of trying to kill t6 & t7 than spamming the hell out of levi X to upgrade their weapons from i95 to i100. So why make a major detour to spam the hell out of LeviX to acquire a weapon you're just going to ditch before you get to the point where weapon really matters? (tier 9)

RNG is an RPGs bread and butter when it comes to system. If you don't like the system, or find it detrimental enough to hate the game (especially when it's not even very prevalent in this one), you're not exactly a valid source of criticism when a game dev decides to put it in. You may not like it, but that kinda points out that you're not an intended audience/target for the game (in the long term). Using comments like "lazy design" only points out that you just don't know much about what to expect from the genre. From tradition, it's like going into an FPS game and complaining that you die too quickly to headshots. It's an element that the genre tends to follow. Not understanding design choice also reduces the validity of negative comments. You're more than welcome to share them, but unless you understand things well, you're more than likely in-the-wrong to think the way you do. Of course, you could still be right about things, but unless you provide a solid argument for it, no one has a reason to truly believe it.

You remember when RPGs used to give you random amounts of stats when you leveled up? That was stupid, most RPGs have removed that random element because there was nothing particularly fun about saving before you leveled up and reloading until you got a "good" stat level up.

You ever hear Yoshi talk about why the bosses tend to do more scripted moves than random ones? It's because he wanted the players to win or lose fights based primarily on their skill. If the fights were too random, you'd end up with easier or harder versions of the fights depending on which skills got used and in which order. So a player might win a fight once because it did the moves in an "easy" sequence and then lose a fight because they got a "hard" sequence. Players do not want to lose fights "just because", they want them to feel fair and that they lost them because they made a mistake. So, while there are some random elements to the fights, most of it is pretty scripted so you get a reasonably consistent experience from one attempt to the next.

Advancement and gear is also important to RPGs. People may kill stuff a few times just because it's fun, but you'll need to have that carrot on this stick (loot) to get them to keep killing it. This way content doesn't get outdated too quickly. By the same token I think having massive RNG is a lazy way to set up the carrot and the stick. When you base advancement (loot) on RNG, and then make that RNG very low, then by the same token, a player's ability to progress is going to vary wildly depending on how RNG treats them. Some RNG is good so that people don't necessarily know exactly what to expect each time. However, too much and you're going to end up with too many players that chase that carrot, never get the stick, and are going to be put off by the process. Which is why I feel it's bad, and really lazy.

[Kuwagami]

Why would you want to make something particularly desirable that rare?

I should let you answer yourself, but here is why : it's desirable. Thus people will do it regardless of the odds. Thus the content gets longevity. Because now people can't do stuff for fun and desperately need that carrot.

Very few of your paying customers get to enjoy it. You'll probably end up annoying more players that can't have it than you'll please by having it be a rare item.

1) that's the point. Few people getting it and having shinies. Been like that for ages.
2) if people get upset when they can't get a rare item, honestly, the MMORPG genre isn't for them at all. Rare items are supposed to give rewards for particularly skilled players, dedicated enough players or lucky players. It is supposed to create the will to do better or to try a bit more.

Besides, there's nothing particularly special about the tidal weapons. Either the stats or the looks. So it makes very little sense for anyone to try to make it "rare". It's an inferior alternative to animus or weathered because it can't be upgraded further.

if it's sub-par to anything else, why do you want it in the first place ? Because it's here ? You're not entitled to get everything that exists in the game. (Having access to it at some point, yes, but that's already achieved. You *have* access to the mirror.)

I don't believe they're using mirrors to make tidal weapons rare, anyway. It's a carrot on a stick for those who choose to chase it. Keep Levi EX as relevant content for longer. Get people to keep running it after they've gotten their weapon to give others an opportunity to get a weapon too. But I believe it's a bad way to set up the carrot and stick because the results can vary so wildly. You could be done after 1 run, or not finish it in 1000 runs. If they don't get their carrot, they're going to get tired of chasing things eventually.

if it wasn't to make tidal weapons rare, it wouldn't be here at all. All the weapons would directly be i95 or i100.

and grats at discovering how RNG works in MMOs for rare items. But people won't get tired. They'll switch to the next carrot and continue forth. And eventually they'll realize that the carrot isn't here because they are ought to get it one day. They'll know that it's here because one day they could get it.



side note : an "easy to get" carrot on an easy content such as Leviathan would be an horrible idea. Everyone would get their tidal weap in a month, and the content would become useless for 2 month.

[Welsper59]

Thank you for the much better laid out argument. It really is appreciated.

It's a matter of time. Most statics are smart enough to know that they'll get to tier 8 faster if they spam the hell out of trying to kill t6 & t7 than spamming the hell out of levi X to upgrade their weapons from i95 to i100. So why make a major detour to spam the hell out of LeviX to acquire a weapon you're just going to ditch before you get to the point where weapon really matters? (tier 9)

In the scenario that Levi mirror weapons are consistent and predictable to obtain, why would an FC want to ignore that fact, and go into harder content without acquiring a noticeable upgrade beforehand that's from a far easier thing? t6 and 7 were not easy when they first came out (and still not easy for many). Unless your idea of the predictability behind mirror weapons is along the lines of killing him 500-1000 times for an item to get it, there's really no reason that FCs looking to do Coil would ignore an easy upgrade from Levi. It's the way your peers work. Any upgrade, if seen as simple to acquire, becomes "mandatory". Likewise, it's apparently mandatory for people that don't do Coil to acquire mirror weapons despite having no purposeful use for it (compared to something like Zenith relic or the regular Levi weapon).

You remember when RPGs used to give you random amounts of stats when you leveled up? That was stupid, most RPGs have removed that random element because there was nothing particularly fun about saving before you leveled up and reloading until you got a "good" stat level up.

You ever hear Yoshi talk about why the bosses tend to do more scripted moves than random ones? It's because he wanted the players to win or lose fights based primarily on their skill. If the fights were too random, you'd end up with easier or harder versions of the fights depending on which skills got used and in which order. So a player might win a fight once because it did the moves in an "easy" sequence and then lose a fight because they got a "hard" sequence. Players do not want to lose fights "just because", they want them to feel fair and that they lost them because they made a mistake. So, while there are some random elements to the fights, most of it is pretty scripted so you get a reasonably consistent experience from one attempt to the next.

Advancement and gear is also important to RPGs. People may kill stuff a few times just because it's fun, but you'll need to have that carrot on this stick (loot) to get them to keep killing it. This way content doesn't get outdated too quickly. By the same token I think having massive RNG is a lazy way to set up the carrot and the stick. When you base advancement (loot) on RNG, and then make that RNG very low, then by the same token, a player's ability to progress is going to vary wildly depending on how RNG treats them. Some RNG is good so that people don't necessarily know exactly what to expect each time. However, too much and you're going to end up with too many players that chase that carrot, never get the stick, and are going to be put off by the process. Which is why I feel it's bad, and really lazy.

See the argument is pertaining to gear acquisition though, not mechanics or stat distribution. Not wanting to lose a fight because of some random ability that you just can't avoid is really worthy of complaint. It really is. Loot is a different matter though. They serve a purpose. It's a tool of progression that is, often, required to succeed (if you're actually aiming to progress in the intended content it's to be used in). You're right about the carrot on a stick bit, but there are other options. If a player willingly chooses to not take part in those other options, they're the cause of their problem, not the devs choice to use RNG on the one option the player wants to use. Ignoring the consequences of your own choices is very... bad. Not just from a game advancement perspective, but from a purely personality one. You're right again that this player will just get fed up chasing the carrot, but that's... expected. This player is willingly choosing not to participate in other content. What's to say they won't quit after they acquire it? They won't do anything meaningful with it that they couldn't do with a lower weapon lol. Mind you, I'm not saying they shouldn't get the item. I'm saying that they don't have much valid complaint because of their intentional neglect of the rest of the game.

When a player understands their own choices, and what it means to make that choice, they'll know what they are in for (generally). If I willingly choose to ignore Coil, I'm making the intentional choice to not be able to acquire the best gear available. I'm aware of the consequence that in order to get gear, I'll have to make do with what's available to me in order to get what I consider endgame for myself. For the more advanced thinkers, you'd also be aware that these alternatives must coincide with balance requirements and the additional time/RNG that is to come with it. I'm choosing the leisure alternative, which depending on how equivalent of gear it is to what's in the hardest content, may be something I never see. If that single piece of gear is the reason I'm playing this game, I never really belonged here to begin with. I wouldn't be the target audience because of how fickle I am as a loyal consumer. Thankfully, despite my lack of interest to do Coil, I'm not quite so fickle as to place all my attention to some piece of gear that wouldn't do much for me but make me kill that generic lv48 mob in the open world a second faster.