PLD cross class idea

[Jerilith]

What if... PLD had access to Shroud of Saints.

As it stands right now, in AOE situations WAR is vastly superior due to having the ability to cross class flash, and access of its own overpower (one running on mp the other tp). We also know that generally WAR is much more equipped to handle emnity over large quantities of mobs.

What if we gave the PLD a tool that not only gave them more specific emnity control but a way to generate more mp?
In OT'ing scenerios this could work almost as a reverse Provoke. Rather than a tank switch consisting of a provoke to gain hate, what if it was done to relenquish it?

PRO's-
A way for a PLD to regain MP.

A possible way for PLD to furthur branch out into emergency healer, if shroud's were eventually available, so could some of the WHM/CNJ's other CD's making Emergency healing potency actually Viable.

Very Risk Reward oriented. Now if a PLD were to use Shrouds in a Brayflox HM SR situation to regain mp, there would be a massive risk of huge hate loss resulting on severe aggro towards the healer.

It would no longer be full blown requirement for WAR to gain access to provoke. End game tanking is most complimentory when both WAR and PLD are being used in conjunction with one another as is. This would cause Shroud to be used as a reverse Provoke where the PLD relenquishes hate rather than it being intentionally taken.

Adding some variety and utility to the more basic of the two tanking classes.

CONS-

An addition to PLD's cross class system would need to be balanced in direct coordination with WAR, and WAR would need to gain another cross class of equal value (any suggestion from MNK/PUG would be awesome)

Complicating a system outside of its intended purpose. This would be a change that would have to have change happen in a direct result. Allowing PLD another cross skill would mean that every other class would need to gain one more ability, then we start delving into a bit more... complicated break down of what could be to come. A whole topic in itself.

EDIT:
Problems regarding usage when a tank is NOT the individual trailing the current tank in emnity, and directing hate to the wrong people.
Any furthur additions will be added.

EDIT2:

There are a few problems with this idea.

1. Paladins don't need another way to gain MP. They have Riot Blade, which also already carries the risk of losing aggro because it's not producing as much as Halone.

2. Paladins are tanks. No tank should ever have an ability that explicitly lowers their aggro. This literally goes against their purpose of having more aggro than anyone else(except another tank if they're OT). Please note that the Tanks are one of few jobs who don't have access to an ability that reduces aggro. The others are Scholar and Monk. Scholar has no problems with aggro anyway, and I like using Monk's lack of one as possible evidence that Pugilist will have a Tanking job someday. Besides, Monks rarely have problems with aggro because the first few seconds of a fight, where all other DPS are capable of bursting their little hearts out and stealing hate(and thus use said hate shedding abilities during the initial burst), are the seconds the Monk has to spend ramping up to full power... so aggro really isn't an issue because the Tank has established good hate before they reach full damage.

3. Shroud reduces aggro by half. This means that on those little aggro meters on the party window, anyone who is over halfway full on their meter will have more aggro than you when shroud pops. In most situations, this will be the case and any situation with more than one monster losing aggro will likely cause a wipe. We don't want to give anyone a "press this to wipe" button. To put things simply, there's too much risk for too little reward. No "normal" situation calls for that much Flashing.

4. You're making a suggestion to prevent Provoke from being required for Warriors as a cross class skill... that requires Paladin to have their own necessary cross class skill that needs more leveling than Provoke to obtain. You're trading one evil(explicitly required cross class skill) for a greater one here. Besides, Warriors will still need Provoke for all 4 man content and a Paladin with Shroud should never need it in 4 man content, so the initiative doesn't solve this issue at all.

5. A Paladin emergency healer would need to be able to make itself immune to interruption in order to be effective at all. Unlike other games that give Paladin effective heals, spell interruption makes it incredibly difficult to tank and heal at the same time

Thoughts? Thanks!

[Tam_Hawkins]

Hi Jerilith,
I think it is a very interesting Idea (and I'm in full Support of it^^)
But I think there is one Problem:

What if... PLD had access to Shroud of Saints.

It would no longer be full blown requirement for WAR to gain access to provoke. End game tanking is most complimentory when both WAR and PLD are being used in conjunction with one another as is. This would cause Shroud to be used as a reverse Provoke where the PLD relenquishes hate rather than it being intentionally taken.
Thoughts? Thanks!

Normally when I'm playing as OT i try to be second in line for aggro and way ahead the dds and healers, but many ot don't do that. So if the OT does not use Provoke to bring his Aggro above yours but instead you use SoS to bring your Aggro bellow his then dds and healers will be in danger. Off course this will be no Problem in premade Partys with solid strategies or/and good communication in fight, but every Dutyfinder Group will probably kick them self outwith this. On the other side combining both could be really helpfull (ot using provoke and MT useind SoS afterwards -> forner MT does not have to wait former OT to get more Aggro before former MT can attack again).

[WingsofWar]

i don't get what you're aiming for OP,

as a pld.....only additional modification i want from CNJ/WHM is combat raise....

[Tyrial]

i don't get what you're aiming for OP,

as a pld.....only additional modification i want from CNJ/WHM is combat raise....

This or a reasonable self heal.

[Brannigan]

Esuna please

[Donjo]

There are a few problems with this idea.

1. Paladins don't need another way to gain MP. They have Riot Blade, which also already carries the risk of losing aggro because it's not producing as much as Halone.

2. Paladins are tanks. No tank should ever have an ability that explicitly lowers their aggro. This literally goes against their purpose of having more aggro than anyone else(except another tank if they're OT). Please note that the Tanks are one of few jobs who don't have access to an ability that reduces aggro. The others are Scholar and Monk. Scholar has no problems with aggro anyway, and I like using Monk's lack of one as possible evidence that Pugilist will have a Tanking job someday. Besides, Monks rarely have problems with aggro because the first few seconds of a fight, where all other DPS are capable of bursting their little hearts out and stealing hate(and thus use said hate shedding abilities during the initial burst), are the seconds the Monk has to spend ramping up to full power... so aggro really isn't an issue because the Tank has established good hate before they reach full damage.

3. Shroud reduces aggro by half. This means that on those little aggro meters on the party window, anyone who is over halfway full on their meter will have more aggro than you when shroud pops. In most situations, this will be the case and any situation with more than one monster losing aggro will likely cause a wipe. We don't want to give anyone a "press this to wipe" button. To put things simply, there's too much risk for too little reward. No "normal" situation calls for that much Flashing.

4. You're making a suggestion to prevent Provoke from being required for Warriors as a cross class skill... that requires Paladin to have their own necessary cross class skill that needs more leveling than Provoke to obtain. You're trading one evil(explicitly required cross class skill) for a greater one here. Besides, Warriors will still need Provoke for all 4 man content and a Paladin with Shroud should never need it in 4 man content, so the initiative doesn't solve this issue at all.

5. A Paladin emergency healer would need to be able to make itself immune to interruption in order to be effective at all. Unlike other games that give Paladin effective heals, spell interruption makes it incredibly difficult to tank and heal at the same time.

[Jerilith]

stuff.

I agree with your rebuttles more than I agree with my own points ^_^.

Thanks for pointing out some negatives. I'll edit your post into the original post in the cons section!

[Souljacker]

Well..
1. I agree.
2. Yes and no. This was added to XI once and it was beneficial for Ninjas. I won't say it was the end-all, be-all skill that defined the class, but it had its uses. With the way that provoke works here and unless "taunt" is made an individual tank, taunt proper skill I can see SE fudging over the way it works by adding a threat shedder to tanks.
3. Maybe. This wouldn't be used by the add tank I imagine. It would have a very specific use.
4. Provoke shouldn't be a cross class skill at all. Every tank should have their own taunt. It's a defining tank ability. I agree his implementation is silly and wouldn't help the root problems with tank design.
5. Agreed. I don't understand why self-healing is so ineffective here. Even in XI as a paladin I could toss off a cure # once in a while without completely losing control of my monster, and it was reasonably effective and useful. It feels like SE really dropped the ball here on paladin design and there are a LOT of missed opportunities. It's almost like with the way that threat is generated, it was intended at some point to have Paladin able to use more conjury healing spells (which would make up the disparity between warrior threat generation and paladin threat generation especially on multiple mobs and at low levels), but then at some point they shifted direction and took the usefulness away and make it just a strict combat class instead of combat-caster. The end result was a much weaker threat generator than warrior.

In all, I'm not sure WHAT they were planning for or intending with this class. It's been disappointing that they STILL have a serious issue with mixing sword and sorcery. I hope paladin does get some buffs though.

[Donjo]

Well..
2. Yes and no. This was added to XI once and it was beneficial for Ninjas. I won't say it was the end-all, be-all skill that defined the class, but it had its uses. With the way that provoke works here and unless "taunt" is made an individual tank, taunt proper skill I can see SE fudging over the way it works by adding a threat shedder to tanks.

Referencing the FFXI Ninja at all in a discussion about tanks is a can of worms. I know I never played the game, but I still know that Ninja was not developed to be a tank and was only given enmity generating abilities once bad design allowed the community to use it as one. The main question here is "was the Ninja hate shedding move meant to help it perform its originally intended DPS role, or was it an ability specifically tailored to help them tank?"

[Souljacker]

Referencing the FFXI Ninja at all in a discussion about tanks is a can of worms. I know I never played the game, but I still know that Ninja was not developed to be a tank and was only given enmity generating abilities once bad design allowed the community to use it as one. The main question here is "was the Ninja hate shedding move meant to help it perform its originally intended DPS role, or was it an ability specifically tailored to help them tank?"

I don't recall it ever actually being given enmity generating abilities. We generated enmity through a combination of provoke from warrior subjob, spinning the elemental wheel and damage (coupled with some SATA,but again I'm going wayyy back before the level caps were raised so maybe there was some enmity updates afterward). You may be thinking of them adding enmity decay to shadows, which wasn't originally there and why at the start the players jumped on it as it was SOOO effective as a tank.

It is completely irrelevant though, because my comment was steered more towards "the idea isn't COMPLETELY terrible and can be situationally used look at how it was here", not that I thought the design of Ninja as a DD turned Tank able to DD again was something to model Paladin after. I would prefer to see paladin modeled after, well, Paladin in XI if anything, with maybe a splattering of ideas from other games. Combat-caster classes can be super fun to play, but right now paladin doesn't "feel" like one.