So you're telling me that gaming isnt an ever evolving field? Mmo's today are identical to the ones 15 years ago? Games change. The genre changes. Definitions change. It's called innovation and differentiation so that every game isn't the same. If the genre was so stagnant it wound be boring. You need to broaden your personal definition. It's limiting. Coil is a raid, and you need to find a way to live with that fact. What you specifically want us multi party raids. If this thread had been more specific on that point instead of acting like coil doesn't count due to personal definitions then a better discussion may have been had. All this exclusion of coil and outdated definitions are nothing but a distraction from what would have been a more interesting conversation. Lastly, if more group raids is what this is all about then it makes the thread seem simply ill timed since another one come out next week.