Future of Coil in DF

[Ooshima]

Haha, so on one hand you're concerned that the Echo helps people get through content without learning much, while at the same time you're carrying groups and ensuring they learn even less... there's a word for that kind of double standard.

I think you simply took me as concerned. My original statement was that Echo is a good and bad thing, because it makes people clear content but bad at the same time because bad players stay bad. You were the one who started with people have plenty to learn despite the nerfed state which I simply drawn examples and reasoning why it isn't, and they aren't going to be able to learn as much as pre-nerf. Some doesn't even bother to learn properly anyways. I ended with a brief touch on how I actually benefited from doing the unnerfed content and suggested that players might want to look forward to the same if they really wanted to learn more stuff.

If by any means because of the above statement/advise you believe that I am truly concerned, very concerned, then you have probably misunderstood me. I'm just pointing out that at current state Echo pushes people through content with the risk that they aren't learning much. It is a point raised, not a concern raised. I don't think anyone would be unhappy if like 90% of the player base are awesome players. It may mean less income for us but I'm sure there will be other kind of fun with these great players. But reality isn't - and thus we don't turn down the gil either. Simply being realistic and practical.

[Zephyranthes]

Saying things like "T5 in DF is too much" and expecting people to always fail is not an excuse for not including them in DF in the first place.

DF is supposed to be there to give people easier access to forming groups. If you get matched with people who knows the fight, then lucky you. Else, keep on trying.

[blowfin]

I think you simply took me as concerned. My original statement was that Echo is a good and bad thing, because it makes people clear content but bad at the same time because bad players stay bad. You were the one who started with people have plenty to learn despite the nerfed state which I simply drawn examples and reasoning why it isn't, and they aren't going to be able to learn as much as pre-nerf.

I just think that your point about echo making "bad players stay bad" is kind of BS. That's all really.

You know how it goes, last year it was "FATE leveling creates bad players", in XI people blamed Abyssea. Now it's the Echo. It's all BS. It comes down to the individual and how much they're willing to learn and participate. Echo doesn't change that.

[blowfin]

Situation now is players who passed coil1 with echo learn only 5-10% of what they should've learn in pre-echo coil1

This was the situation with the Main story and leveling to 50 in 2.0 too. Faceroll content until you hit the wall of Coil (the hardest dungeon) and then get a wake up call. Working as intended.

Like I've said players still need to learn the important mechanics of these fights, I think you're also massively overstating the effect Echo has on people's development.

[Radacci]

T2 was quite a cockblock to a large number of groups just like how T7 is. I believe that the duration of petrified will reduce or even removable via Esuna/Leech just like the High Voltage nerf.

Do you think reducing petrify duration will help? 1 shriek will cause anyone to get 1shot; that's not really like nerfing High Voltage.
Most healers aren't very good at Esuna/Leech. It's rare that i get DET debuff removed at TitanHM, in roulette. So i don't think a DF pt would be able to get through all the petrify/poison tail, unless you get really lucky with a group.

Even in it's nerfed state there is plenty to learn in T1-5. The notion that people learn nothing with it nerfed and with the Echo is quite frankly, a bunch of BS. It's still harder content than anything that comes before it, maybe with the exception of the EX primals. Just because you see bad players doesn't mean they're eternally stuck in some state of being terrible, without ever learning anything.

Nah, it's about reflexes, and attitude. There's this guy in FC, his GF has played games for years, but she doesn't improve; ppl have a *skill cap*
It's like ppl thinking they can be anything they want to be, if they just apply themselves...not really...have you seen Idol? some ppl cant sing, if their lives depended on it
As DD, if you always get tunnelvision, you're just gonna wipe your party, in T6-9. They might learn the mechanics, but that don't help if you don't notice them.

Saying things like "T5 in DF is too much" and expecting people to always fail is not an excuse for not including them in DF in the first place.

DF is supposed to be there to give people easier access to forming groups. If you get matched with people who knows the fight, then lucky you. Else, keep on trying.

Yah, but that's like waiting for the stars to align...
It took me 100hrs of TitanX, before i clear it. and only because i started forming pts myself, kicking and replacing ppl...otherwise it would have taken 100+ more.
That was 15hr/day for a week and a half....you know what i could have done with that time instead? go on a 2 week vacation or something...but no, i was wiping to TitanX instead...
PF is quite easy access to forming groups...gives you more control, too.
So, personally, im never gonna do any DF, except for normal instances.

[Ooshima]

Do you think reducing petrify duration will help? 1 shriek will cause anyone to get 1shot; that's not really like nerfing High Voltage.
Most healers aren't very good at Esuna/Leech. It's rare that i get DET debuff removed at TitanHM, in roulette. So i don't think a DF pt would be able to get through all the petrify/poison tail, unless you get really lucky with a group.

I don't know how SE is going to do it though, I was just trying to draw a similar possibility with what was done in T2. Except that tecnically Rot from T2 is still supposed to wipe you but you can bypass that with soft enrage. T7 you can't.

Rot is akin to Curse Shriek - handle it wrong, raid wipe. High Voltage is like Cursed Voice. Yes, reduced time in petrified state helps. If you are a mDPS that got petrified, you may need not die even with current 30s timer, but it is a damn long wait. If your raid has 3 ranged DPS and you got voiced, you have a 33% chance to escape instant death if you are not being picked as the Circle of Flames target. Say if the debuff reduced from 30s to 10s and able to be cleansed with Esuna/Leech, I think it does ease the casualty from an error made with Cursed Voice.

[Crimson-Falcon]

T8s ballistic missile in a pug...
Also tower activation.
Now that i think about it t9 might be more pug-friendly than t8 o_0

guess you dont know T9 yet

T8 is the easiest turn in 2nd coil beside making DPS check which most ppl dont do

but still easier than T9

[Wizhard]

guess you dont know T9 yet

T8 is the easiest turn in 2nd coil beside making DPS check which most ppl dont do

but still easier than T9

Except that i beat it two weeks ago.
And i still think ballistic in its current iteration will be harder to deal with in a pug than second set of meteors.

[Zarzak]

A mechanic nerf will come for 2nd coil when the 3rd installment comes. The 1st coil does get mechanic nerfs.

T2 was quite a cockblock to a large number of groups just like how T7 is.

We must be playing very different games. IN FFXIV Turn 2 was the easiest pug turn since pre 2.1 due to enrage method