The amount of things endgame enemies are immune to is TOO HIGH!

[Renik]

snip

As i said certain debuffs work on certain bosses because that how they were designed or they make no difference at all, like slow on garuda.[/QUOTE]

RoH effect is a def buff in form of a debuff, w/o it pld would lose part of it's effectiveness, eye for an eye its like RoH another attk down debuff, and bio was a really usefull skill, until they nerfed it, you can say they are useful but they dont' make a big difference, like stuns, sicelns or pacification would do.
SE have proven they don't care about those effects, when one of these were making a big difference they just had to push the nerf button, they are just balancing the game by limiting us, not through true balance.

A good way to design battles would be making resistances just to certain skills that could potentially destroy the battle, giving the bosses resistance builds, and and full resistance while performing certain skills.

Now about the ppl saying this would exclude some jobs from battles, we already do so, some battles are deadly for melee, others are for mages, and brds are just perfect for all of them, to the point there are always statics looking for brds when the game is already full of them.

This game is lacking lots of strategy and personalization because of this lazy balance method, and if you cant see it you're just blind.

If this is the price we have to pay to have harder battles (i don't thing so, this is just trial an error testing) i'm not willing to pay it.

[Seaku]

As i said certain debuffs work on certain bosses because that how they were designed or they make no difference at all, like slow on garuda.

RoH effect is a def buff in form of a debuff, w/o it pld would lose part of it's effectiveness, eye for an eye its like RoH another attk down debuff, and bio was a really usefull skill, until they nerfed it, you can say they are useful but they dont' make a big difference, like stuns, sicelns or pacification would do.

Right but RoH is still a debuff I don't care how you swing it, it's in the normal rotation so in the post I was replying to I didn't consider it a 'tactical' use.
Eye for an Eye and Foe's requiem are buffs that trigger debuffs. Debuffs that are useful, might I add for specific parts of fights that, shock horror, you can use tactically.
Having another 10% damage down for potentially 40 seconds is a big difference, that's 10% less you need to heal. Especially with big hits like in Turn 4 (when it wasn't trivial), Turn 5, Turn 8, Turn 9, Titan HM/EX to name a few.

Pacification as far as I can tell does nothing on most endgame bosses as well as 4-man bosses, so why are you saying that makes a difference?

Also 20% slow (feint) or 5% slow (shadowflare) does do something, it means she swings 20% or 5% less of the time. Potentially saving you damage. Just because you personally don't notice it doesn't mean it isn't there. Look at the flipside, if you get slowed, you notice your dps go down substationally don't you?

SE have proven they don't care about those effects, when one of these were making a big difference they just had to push the nerf button, they are just balancing the game by limiting us, not through true balance.

If you're talking about virus they stopped it from trivializing part of a fight just be pressing the button again and again for a good 40sec of little worry (2x healers, 2x caster dps), wait 50 sec, do it again. It can still be used, and it can be used well.

A good way to design battles would be making resistances just to certain skills that could potentially destroy the battle, giving the bosses resistance builds, and and full resistance while performing certain skills.

Oh, so like Diabolos? End boss of Haukke hm? Siren? Symond? Ifrit HM? Things in the game already?

Now about the ppl saying this would exclude some jobs from battles, we already do so, some battles are deadly for melee, others are for mages, and brds are just perfect for all of them, to the point there are always statics looking for brds when the game is already full of them.

Okay, so garuda EX for melee if you don't use triangle method and blms for movement heavy fights (going to be rectified). Other than that I don't see people being excluded for their class currently.

This game is lacking lots of strategy and personalization because of this lazy balance method, and if you cant see it you're just blind.

You don't need to start insults to make a point. Besides blind doesn't work that well, maybe trying stunning me perhaps?
Personalization yes the game is lacking, does that have anything to do with debuffs? Not really.
Strategy, the fact that you can come up with multiple different strategies for all the current coil says otherwise, debuffs not withstanding. Even then every of the current coil is made easier with good use of debuffs, you know the ones that work on every boss.
Also since when is bosses being designed around use of debuffs a bad thing? If every fight the enemies were able to be hit by all the debuffs save at key points you'd then just have a rotation again for when you use them. Changing nothing much and making the devs have to take more design time with these debuffs assumed.

Why not do the simpler thing and redesign the abilities? Have them all have secondary effects if their debuffs don't work, like a potency increase? Gives you a buff? Causes a different type of debuff if the enemies are immune?

If this is the price we have to pay to have harder battles (i don't think so, this is just trial and error testing) i'm not willing to pay it.

The only way a boss won't have any trial and error parts to it is if you have something like WoW's encounter book that tells you all the bosses abilities before you go in. Most games are the same, you do trial and error to learn a fight. It's a design philsophophy and not necessarily a bad one. Possibly a time consuming one on the players part.

[Renik]

snip

Too many answers to quote them all, i'm too lazy...

I'll give preference to this one,the blind part was not directed to you, and it's not an insult, i was blind during the alpha/beta and blindly defended this game to a point where i called myself a white knight back then, some ppl know how much i criticize the game to improve it now.

And to the rest i will just respond that i wanted to expand the discussion about what seems to be a small problem but in reality it's part of a bigger one, we have given up many thing in the name of balance and we will lose even more if SE keeps developing the game this way.

Debuffs like blind and slow are already useless or at least you can play w/o them, and even if we can apply them it's for a very short period of time and with a great resistance build, and we are already missing tons of classic ff status effects, tell me i'm wrong, tell me we have place for improvisation in this game,even if you can find various ways to defeat a boss, all of them have been overseen by the dev team, and if something escapes from their balance claws they will just fix it.

I'm not suggesting facerolls or encounters full of RNG, i just want SE to do real balance work to design battles that are fun and not facerolls after the first win, i don't mind if we have to fight a primal for 30min as long as it's fun.

[Morningstar1337]

I will agree the following statuses are kind of pointless: sleep, blind, and pacify.
Those ones don't work on anything useful.

Finally, even if you disagree with me with the debuffs some buffs still should be used strategically; mantra, sacred soil, swiftcast, any defensive CD, etc.

Sleeps is useful for giving someone the slip, FATEs and open world objectives and I'm pretty sure Dungeon Speedruns.

[Souljacker]

Sleeps is useful for giving someone the slip, FATEs and open world objectives and I'm pretty sure Dungeon Speedruns.

No, because you can't even use teleport when engaged with a monster now. Sometimes I will use it in a dungeon to sleep an add but most of the time you are muscling through content anyway so... no.

Also, isn't the point of dungeon speedruns to kill the mobs as fast as possible with AoE - not sleep and kill them one at a time? You might be thinking of manaburn parties in XI, but I have yet to see something like that here.

[Seaku]

No, because you can't even use teleport when engaged with a monster now. Sometimes I will use it in a dungeon to sleep an add but most of the time you are muscling through content anyway so... no.

Also, isn't the point of dungeon speedruns to kill the mobs as fast as possible with AoE - not sleep and kill them one at a time? You might be thinking of manaburn parties in XI, but I have yet to see something like that here.

WP speed runs at some points were; kill Tonberry, sleep rest of mobs, run. I still find sleep rather pointless as I doubt it'll every be allowed properly in raids, in pvp it seems alright though I suppose. 4 mans it's meant as Crowd Control but in a standard run no-one uses it.

[Morningstar1337]

Also, isn't the point of dungeon speedruns to kill the mobs as fast as possible with AoE - not sleep and kill them one at a time? You might be thinking of manaburn parties in XI, but I have yet to see something like that here.

I though the point of speedruns is to get to and kill the bosses as fast as possible. Granted my experience of that is in the my only run of Brayflox HM so I'm not sure how viable this is (and even thin I think it was used on coreul mobs because of the keys)

[Iriadysa]

when was the last time a PLD was able to stun a devastating move during a boss encounter?

It's all a DPS race and dodge dance... plain and simple.

It's funny you say this and then mention a DPS race. The last time you could stun an end game boss completely out of a devastating move was Ifrit HM, when ti was actually relevant.

You know what happened? People decided they didn't need to learn how to dodge because it was the tank's problem to save everyone from eruptions.

Stun just breeds bad players. I'm sure everyone that played FFXI remembers the ever present Chainspell Stun "tactic".

[Souljacker]

I agree. It just makes the fight too much simplistic when you make obsolete so many skills. Then you rely only on dodge this, dodge that mechanisms to keep it interesting but that gets old at some point.

You must have never played any other mmos if you think that the fights here are complex and challenging. What you just described is how about 90% of the fights currently are.

I think that XI had a much better handle on debuffing being useful. In this game it's part of a standard DPS rotation but it's not something that really stands alone like it did over there. The skills should either be very useful or not be there at all. People just muscle through lower content and the skills are useless on higher content, so what is the point of all these extra spells that don't actually "do" anything?

[Iriadysa]

You must have never played any other mmos if you think that the fights here are complex and challenging. What you just described is how about 90% of the fights currently are.

I think that XI had a much better handle on debuffing being useful. In this game it's part of a standard DPS rotation but it's not something that really stands alone like it did over there. The skills should either be very useful or not be there at all. People just muscle through lower content and the skills are useless on higher content, so what is the point of all these extra spells that don't actually "do" anything?

Are you seriously quoting FFXI as an example of a useful skill repertoire? I must question your actual familiarity with FFXI. We had complete jobs that were borderline useless and pages of skills that served no purpose (e.g. most of SMN's avatars and their skills).