Tank Gearing help!

[Argyle_Darkheart]

Yes, everything is easier once you learn the fight. However, the OP is obviously someone who hasn't. Only when a fight is mastered should its participants experiment with stats, equipment, and specialties. In all other cases, the (main) Tanks should stack Vit and Parry. There is no question about this. It's simply what's safest. Save the experiments for after the down.

You'll learn to effectively mitigate the damage pretty quickly (well before your first clear); you don't at all need to have "mastered" the fight. I wouldn't recommend what I did if you needed mastery of the current content.

The point of more STR is to make your first clear easier. That is, the main hurdles of T9 are NOT tank mitigation management or healing. Rather, the difficulty of T9 comes from managing mechanics and clearing DPS checks. Neither of these are much impacted by your VIT and/or Parry.

[Donjo]

You'll learn to effectively mitigate the damage pretty quickly (well before your first clear); you don't at all need to have "mastered" the fight. I wouldn't recommend what I did if you needed mastery of the current content.

The point of more STR is to make your first clear easier. That is, the main hurdles of T9 are NOT tank mitigation management or healing. Rather, the difficulty of T9 comes from managing mechanics and clearing DPS checks. Neither of these are much impacted by your VIT and/or Parry.

When it comes to ways to increase the overall damage inflicted by the group, giving the Main Tank a little extra Strength is by and far the least effective option. Get the DPS to 110 weapons, for starters. Second, if additional DPS really is necessary, you can get the Off Tank into full a Strength spec(bonus stats and accessories), which will make a difference. Meanwhile, a main tank who's stacked on mitigation can spend enough time not being healed that the healers can sling a few damaging spells of their own out. Sure, they'll miss a few times, but hitting with just one spell deals more damage than over a minute of adding up the 10 or so more damage per hit you can get by switching Vit for Str. That alone will will put an i100 tank well below your proposed breakpoint of 7400 health. If the healers alone can hit with 11-15 spells over the course of the fight without getting anyone killed, they've surpassed anything a less survivable tank could have traded for over the entire fight.

In my opinion, if I'm ever in a situation where my damage as the tank is what will make or break a fight, then there is some kind of issue with the group. The job of the tank is to keep the attention of foes and, more importantly, not die. If the tank dies, so does the party. Doing as much damage as possible is not in that job description, and attempting to do so only makes your actual job harder unless you appreciably overgear the content. Even if making the job harder increases the difficulty from "Very Easy" to just "Easy", that's still more stress you're putting on the healers and by extension the rest of the party.

[Argyle_Darkheart]

When it comes to ways to increase the overall damage inflicted by the group, giving the Main Tank a little extra Strength is by and far the least effective option.

I disagree. The main tank is a constant source of outgoing damage with little to no opportunity cost; it's a reliable source of damage to optimize. DPS and the off tank take priority, but the main tank is just behind them. Besides, even if it weren't an effective option, it's still an option.

Meanwhile, a main tank who's stacked on mitigation can spend enough time not being healed that the healers can sling a few damaging spells of their own out.

First of all, the only "mitigation" you can stack is Parry, and that's not reliable. VIT can provide enough buffer HP between incoming damage to mitigate the opportunity cost of switching to Cleric Stance, but you need considerable amounts of HP above the minimum HP for that (I would say at least 25% above). But at that point, just how much STR are you sacrificing?

The job of the tank is to keep the attention of foes and, more importantly, not die. If the tank dies, so does the party. Doing as much damage as possible is not in that job description, and attempting to do so only makes your actual job harder unless you appreciably overgear the content. Even if making the job harder increases the difficulty from "Very Easy" to just "Easy", that's still more stress you're putting on the healers and by extension the rest of the party.

I don't understand why some people continually insist that it's not the tank's job to deal damage. If that were the case, then it wouldn't deal damage. Instead, damage occurs naturally while tanking (as opposed to healing), and in considerable amounts. The main tank will generally deal 40-60% as much damage as an equally geared and skilled DPS; that's not negligible.

As for putting stress on the healers, it would be far more stressful if they had to routinely contribute DPS in addition to keeping the raid alive. In my opinion, for end-game content, that's the last resort.


I think most tanks grossly overestimate the importance of VIT past a certain point. Maybe their healers really suck.

[Ooshima]

8.1k HP as a WAR in T9 is enough - one of my FC WAR swear by i70 pentamelds until he get more VIT from i110 armor pieces then he dropped the i70 accessories for i100/110 STR accessories. He is 30STR speced too.

[Ches_Yggdrasil]

It's certainly food for thought. Any more info could be useful. As for the sets they look sorta solid if you spec or respec into str..

[Algin]

DOn't want to make another gearing thread. In one of the links given in this thread, until I get High Allagan gear, it's recommended to get full weathered noct. But, as I checked some of the items, compared to the Hero gear, I'll loose a lot of parry, gaining speedskill and accuracy.

I'm currently in Hero/weathered noct mix, with body, belt, earings and necklase being weathered noct with ATMA shield/sword (working on books) and am on like 494 ACC and 568 parry. Now, would it be okay, if I'd swap bracers to get +3 vit, accuracy and speedskill, while giving up +12 parry? I walways thought, that you should stack mitigation as high as you can. Same goes with other pieces of weathered noct. They trade more parry for accuracy.

So should I mix the hero/weathered noct until I can find time to do coil (working shifts at work is hard to get static or participate in FC raids) and get high allagan?

[Argyle_Darkheart]

snip

Parry's usefulness is questionable. Personally, I think it's a garbage stat for being so unreliable, but that doesn't mean it's useless. As for the specifics of your question, the 3 VIT alone is way better than 12 Parry.

Unfortunately, unless you're clearing SCOB, your equipment options are severely limited (Heavy Wolfram maybe) until patch 2.3 hits.

Bottom line, I would not use any mythology gear over soldiery gear, unless I absolutely needed it to meet accuracy requirements.

[Valkoria]

Anyone who was serious about ScoB when it was serious progression would know that there were some hard dps checks in nearly every fight. Want to know why so many groups couldn't progress in turn 9? Because most groups couldn't push 47% before the third heavens fall. Want to know why t8 felt so hard unless you solo tanked? Remember those times when you'd get a bulb in the center after a hornet? etc.

You'd be surprised how much damage a tank can deal if you are good and have a good attitude about your role, you're not just there to sit and absorb damage. Parry scales extremely poorly and doesn't really improve your EHP all that much.

PS: The word some people are looking for is Effective Health Pool, Mitigation effects it, but having more HP is NOT Mitigation. Mitigation is something that reduces damage taken (rampart/vengeance or armor/parry), Self Regeneration and HP are things that effect your EHP.

[Donjo]

Anyone who was serious about ScoB when it was serious progression would know that there were some hard dps checks in nearly every fight. Want to know why so many groups couldn't progress in turn 9? Because most groups couldn't push 47% before the third heavens fall. Want to know why t8 felt so hard unless you solo tanked? Remember those times when you'd get a bulb in the center after a hornet? etc.

You'd be surprised how much damage a tank can deal if you are good and have a good attitude about your role, you're not just there to sit and absorb damage. Parry scales extremely poorly and doesn't really improve your EHP all that much.

PS: The word some people are looking for is Effective Health Pool, Mitigation effects it, but having more HP is NOT Mitigation. Mitigation is something that reduces damage taken (rampart/vengeance or armor/parry), Self Regeneration and HP are things that effect your EHP.

The highest I've heard of a Tank dealing in their tanking stance is 150 DPS, less than half of what any DPS class should be doling out anywhere in the Second Coil. The returns from maximizing Strength while still remaining survivable are very low and likely will not save the day in any instance where a significant DPS loss is garnered from the DPS itself. It's absolutely true that "every point counts", but it's probably best to get DPS damage up before Tank damage. Plus, if you really want to do more damage while stacking Vit, invest in weapons early and often and bring some Strength Potions along.

However, an Off Tank specced entirely into Strength(30 bonus, all STR accessories) can push 300 outside of a tanking stance and that is not insignificant at all, especially if that Off Tank is a Paladin benefiting from Storm's Eye(Or Path, whichever one reduces slashing resistance). This would actually work on Turn 8 because when the Off Tank should be tanking something, it's never for very long. I hear that Turn 9 might be the same way. However, we've been talking about the benefits of a Main Tank dealing more damage and whether or not it's worth trying to push past that damage debuff to get fight altering results.

Regarding Parry, I really don't think it's a stat that's meant to increase overall EHP in any significant way. It's a chance to mitigate individual attacks at the whim of RNGesus. It's kind of an "oh, nice!" whenever it happens, especially if you parry a powerful attack. I don't look at the "Oh, this 44 Parry only reduced the damage I took over that fight by 0.5%", I look at "Whew, I parried that Rotoswipe during the big moment and now the healers can get me up faster." It merely eases the burden at times, and I hope I'm not the only one who lets out a happy sigh when a big hit gets parried or blocked.

Regarding your comment on health: Did you just completely ignore how I quoted verbatim a dictionary definition of the word "mitigation" and clearly explained how the mere existence of a health pool could satisfy it? Health is the first and last line of defense for mitigation. "Effective" health is merely the approximate amount of damage that must be dealt to you at any given time in order to overcome it. If an attack does not hit harder than your current Effective Health, it has been successfully mitigated. As I stated before, to mitigate something is to reduce the severity of it, and the "severity" of an attack is measured in two separate ways:

1. The amount of damage it does(ie. a 500 damage attack is less severe than a 4000 damage attack). This is straightforward, and reducing this number is the common sole definition of mitigation in the eyes of players.
2. How badly you're off following the attack, or the percentage of health you now have remaining(ie. an attack that deals 15% of your current health is less severe than one that deals 75% of your health). A 500 Damage attack is less severe if you have 7000 health than if you have 1000. Therefore, the mere possession of a larger health pool reduces the severity of all attacks and thus mitigates them.

Cooldowns, Blocks, Parries, and Shields all reduce severity by affecting the first point. You can call this "Active" Mitigation, as it usually requires player input in the midst of battle to take advantage of it. Raw health reduces severity by affecting the second point. You can call this "Passive" Mitigation, as it provides mitigation simply by existing. When put together, they make a tank a tank.