Tank disrespect.

[Krindor]

I don't agree with this sentiment at all. The OT needs to know how to manage aggro so that they are second, not so that they are ripping hate off the MT and creating havoc. Sometimes (especially in things like Syrcus Tower or 8 man content) whoever wants to MT isn't the most geared tank in the party/alliance. I personally think everyone should be allowed the chance to tank things as long as they're geared appropriately for the content.

How about instances where there are tank swap mechanics? If you as OT are ripping hate in Ultima HM or Titan EX back onto you prematurely, you are dooming yourself. Managing your own aggro is part of what makes a good OT.

Except for bosses with swap mechanics what Jaarlask said is true. During one of my runs of Titan HM i ended up OT even though the other tank had much lower tiered gear, but I let him MT anyways, but as soon as the battle starts I notice that my threat bar is steadily increasing even without defiance and only using Heavy Swing->Maim->SP/SE. After the first wipe I tell the tank that it would be better if I MT as it is severely limiting my damage output as well as any DPS who deals more damage than he can handle, yet this tank decides to continue as MT saying I'm talking BS. So I decide that I'll add one HS->SS->BB as this deals the most damage and I instantly gain aggro of the MT, without defiance.

tldr: Except for bosses with swap mechanics, if the MT can't handle the aggro gen of a OT without Shield Oath/Defiance it is better to switch.

As for DPS, Ceodore has a point in that DPS are replaceable, of course a good dps are hard to find but there's a lot of horrible ones and those that are acting like a douchebag, especially those that are a combination of both, are easily changeable. I don't kick people for being horrible but if I come by a DRG who doesn't use HT and/or CT I usually tell them it's time to start, if they don't answer or start becoming aggressive I usually start thinking that there are probably quite a lot of players to replace him if he did get kicked, compared to tanks, kick a tank and you'll either have to wait for a while or just give up.

[Ashkendor]

tldr: Except for bosses with swap mechanics, if the MT can't handle the aggro gen of a OT without Shield Oath/Defiance it is better to switch.

Oh no doubt it would be better to switch; I know it gimps my damage to have to hold back. If for whatever reason the party still wants that person to MT then I just deal with it though, and even keep an eye out for what the person might be doing wrong to produce so little enmity (when it's not just clearly a gear issue). I just really dislike seeing tanks fighting for aggro mid-battle. It seems like there's always one that has to be BEHIND the mob when he provokes it off me, so inevitably the mob throws a cone/line AoE into the DPS.

I don't kick people for being horrible but if I come by a DRG who doesn't use HT and/or CT I usually tell them it's time to start, if they don't answer or start becoming aggressive I usually start thinking that there are probably quite a lot of players to replace him if he did get kicked, compared to tanks, kick a tank and you'll either have to wait for a while or just give up.

Yeah... if they don't correct the behavior and/or give you the old "Don't tell me how to play my class!!" then I tend to start thinking "bad player" no matter what role that they happen to be in. Unfortunately there's a lot of them. :s

[silvach]

Another short story from low level dungeons. So yesterday I decided to take a break of tanking and qeued to Duty roulette as PLG. After a while I was in Haukke Manor with ilvl90 healer, lvl 40 PLD (synced of course) and some new, almost gear-naked DPS. I thought that this is going to be easy, ilvl40+ PLD should be able to hold everything and WHM should be able to heal him no matter what. I was so wrong. Tank was terrible. And by saying terrible I mean it. He was acting like someone who never played this game before. He did not pulled once by using Shield Lob. He just ran to the group of creeps and start using Savage -> Riot - > RoH combo on ONE OF THEM. Did not use flash even once until we cried out lout if he can finally spam flash. After that he spammed flash, while standing like 20yards away from mobs. Imagine how funny it was to see tank using FLASH FLASH FLASH - > run to the pack of trashmobs - > start combo.

It was terrible.

And it was not first time something like that happened to me. I had plenty of high levels WAR's spamming Defiance (yes they thought it is not 'active' skill but a skill that has GCD and can be spammed like Flash), not using overpower properly or using Flash out of the mobs range. I'm a tank (mainly) myself but I can understand that some DPS are raging. Would you be able to insta-trust someone after something like this happens?

EDIT: And please, don't forget about all those people who "I dont english very well". Those people are perfect examples of players to avoid by any means.

[Benolan]

As someone who does heals and DPS, I want more tanks in the game. I have absolutely healed for tanks who were learning their class, lose aggro and/or are squishy.

I am fine with that, they're trying. People need to stop being so impatient.

[Myrhn]

If you find that disrespectful don't ever play healer.

[silvach]

As someone who does heals and DPS, I want more tanks in the game. I have absolutely healed for tanks who were learning their class, lose aggro and/or are squishy.

I am fine with that, they're trying. People need to stop being so impatient.

Trying is something else than being lvl40 without any basic knowledge. Don't you think so? You can try and learn at first 2-3 dungeons, after that if you are still doing terrible it's time to reroll and forget about the job. If the job does not suit you, change it. Not everyone can be a good DPS or good Healer, why people think that anyone can be a good tank?

[Maero]

By the same token, most things can be done with no DPS, aside from things like Haukke HM that involve hard DPS checks (if she goes through 3 Beguiling Mist she will then eat one of your party members and Blood Rain the ever-living crap out of the rest). Try T1 with no tank sometime, though. All roles are equally needed and I really wish people would quit being so nasty about it. For every thing that doesn't require a certain role, there's one where it's absolutely necessary. Nobody is trivial, nobody is unneeded.

As far as tanks being easy to come by, tell that to my DF queues.

I was mainly responding to the rude tank fellow that thinks so little of dps, not all of us are like that.
What i am saying is there is a equal amount of really bad tanks that try to be all high and mighty but cannot keep agro and then bitch and leave
I do agree with some of your points however have never had issues finding tanks

[Enyeto]

...there is a equal amount of really bad tanks that try to be all high and mighty but cannot keep agro and then bitch and leave

It's so sad an unfortunate when you get a meathead that can't be a proper meatshield.


More substantial points why Dungeon Finders are bad game implementations. Including:

1. No one plays class X, so queues are too long
2. What's lfg?
3. Too many scrubs get carried
4. One of these guys can be a troll
5. Communication problems
6. /guild or /shout -- "Anyone want to do X?" --- no answer from the ghost town since everyone is waiting on dungeon finder to finish pairing them.
8. People skip stuff that you may need and complain when its 'inconvenient' to go back.
9. Complainers--for any reason (too fast, too slow, too stupid, undergeared, no hate, overgeared causing hate/heal issues, etc.)
10. ePeen (that last update nerfed the bumb between my toons legs)

[Krindor]

It's so sad an unfortunate when you get a meathead that can't be a proper meatshield.


More substantial points why Dungeon Finders are bad game implementations. Including:

1. No one plays class X, so queues are too long
2. What's lfg?
3. Too many scrubs get carried
4. One of these guys can be a troll
5. Communication problems
6. /guild or /shout -- "Anyone want to do X?" --- no answer from the ghost town since everyone is waiting on dungeon finder to finish pairing them.
8. People skip stuff that you may need and complain when its 'inconvenient' to go back.
9. Complainers--for any reason (too fast, too slow, too stupid, undergeared, no hate, overgeared causing hate/heal issues, etc.)
10. ePeen (that last update nerfed the bumb between my toons legs)

Have you been here since game release? Chimaera and Hydra says hi, 5 hours finding people, wipe, another 5 hours for a new group. Yeah DF is so bad.....
Sure the it ruins a bit of the social part of a mmorpg but the queue times are so much shorter compared to when there were no DF, during beta phase 3 when there were no DF, trying to find a group for Satasha took time and a lot of /shout

[Kydi]

People need to lay off new tanks. I understand that the low level dungeons often have people running for seals etc, but to expect a low level tank to learn how to tank in the first 2-3 dungeons is naive. Your rotation will change between those three dungeons, let alone later on between those and higher level, which completely changes the way you play. Heck, you can't even do a complete rotation until 50.

To be honest if you go into anything other than mid-endgame (from the sounds of it, post relic weapon and starting coil) , you should expect to meet people learning their class, and you should support, not belittle and discourage them. I'm currently leveling a paladin as my first character in FFXIV, but I'll only tank new dungeons if my free company is willing to help, otherwise I'll use my dragoon, precisely because of the attitude that some players have and the expectation that the tank has to know absolutely everything even on their first try. Thankfully I've played other MMOs as a tank, so I know the concepts, but applying those to a new game can be challenging, especially when people are expecting to be carried through by the tank and healer being perfect.