Tank disrespect.

[Kydi]

People need to lay off new tanks. I understand that the low level dungeons often have people running for seals etc, but to expect a low level tank to learn how to tank in the first 2-3 dungeons is naive. Your rotation will change between those three dungeons, let alone later on between those and higher level, which completely changes the way you play. Heck, you can't even do a complete rotation until 50.

To be honest if you go into anything other than mid-endgame (from the sounds of it, post relic weapon and starting coil) , you should expect to meet people learning their class, and you should support, not belittle and discourage them. I'm currently leveling a paladin as my first character in FFXIV, but I'll only tank new dungeons if my free company is willing to help, otherwise I'll use my dragoon, precisely because of the attitude that some players have and the expectation that the tank has to know absolutely everything even on their first try. Thankfully I've played other MMOs as a tank, so I know the concepts, but applying those to a new game can be challenging, especially when people are expecting to be carried through by the tank and healer being perfect.

[silvach]

People need to lay off new tanks. I understand that the low level dungeons often have people running for seals etc, but to expect a low level tank to learn how to tank in the first 2-3 dungeons is naive. Your rotation will change between those three dungeons, let alone later on between those and higher level, which completely changes the way you play. Heck, you can't even do a complete rotation until 50.

To be honest if you go into anything other than mid-endgame (from the sounds of it, post relic weapon and starting coil) , you should expect to meet people learning their class, and you should support, not belittle and discourage them. I'm currently leveling a paladin as my first character in FFXIV, but I'll only tank new dungeons if my free company is willing to help, otherwise I'll use my dragoon, precisely because of the attitude that some players have and the expectation that the tank has to know absolutely everything even on their first try. Thankfully I've played other MMOs as a tank, so I know the concepts, but applying those to a new game can be challenging, especially when people are expecting to be carried through by the tank and healer being perfect.

That is completely not true. The rotation does change but it does not change like every 2 minutes into the game. You gain skills every 2 levels and sometimes those skills that affect the rotation are given once per 5 or even more. If you can't adapt to such slow changes it means you are not born to be a tank and you should give up.

I'm not expecting everyone to be a top-notch tank but at least I expect them to know what they do and what their skills do. Guiding through the dungeon mechanics is something else than guiding a tank how to tank because he does not know that Flash is not whole-screen-enmity but it has a range.

Don't try to say "I'm losing aggro but that is only because I'm new and I know it will be better later" - this is obviously a lie. You lose agro because you do not pay attention to what you do and you don't maximize your enmity per second. I saw multiple tanks going with low level weapon (like lvl 24 weapons in lvl32 dungeons) and whining about how DPS and healer overaggro. The hell you are going through lvl30-40 dungeons with PLD (without shield oath) is a test for you. If you can't hold aggro then you are not fit to the job. It's not like you flash 3 times and you are fine. You need to switch targets to check the enmity level on each mob during RoH combo GCD to decide who should receive next RoH or Savage Blade - each fight is tight as fck when you are lvl30+ to lvl40 new PLD and have 2 synced ilvl100 dpses and healer. If you fail there, don't blame game, blame yourself.

I will repeat that once more - not everyone are fit to this job. And for the learning part - read guides, check the mathematics behind each skill and enmity multipliers, gather any theorycraft you can - then go and try it yourself in lower level dungeons and till 30 you will be pretty set. Then every 2 or 5 levels add this one skill to the rotation, but if you are lvl30 and you are not failing in dungeons it should not be hard to know how to change the rotation to fit this one extra skill.

Why people think this game should be child-friendly and require no skill? Do you want insta-aggro no matter which buttons you spam? Go and play PLD in WoW.

[Kydi]

Wow, I honestly did not expect to see so much hate, and especially not with the undertone of a personal attack based on a valid opinion.

Thankfully I've never struggled to hold agro, probably because I understand and have experience of MMOs . However, for a new tank, doing their main quest who hasn't played an MMO before, being thrust into a dungeon and expected to hold agro against experienced i100 players is unreasonable. No, the rotations are not difficult, but planning the fights can be, and at low level (especially pre provoke) those new tanks have very little way to get enmity back if they lose it.


Picture this situation, a new tank goes into a dungeon, say Halatali, which I believe syncs to 24(?), with two i100 dps and an i100 healer. The new tank has picked up the quest when they could, at 22(?) , so they've probably got level 20 gear. The tank even says at the start they are new and haven't done it before. The tank is struggling to keep agro against the dps who have practiced for months and are in top tier gear. The dps and healer, rather than offer advice, shout some sort of toxic vitriol about the tank being useless, saying they should give up, and kick the tank. Who's in the wrong? The tank is trying their hardest, but rather than offer some constructive advice and scale back their dps (not unreasonable given that there are no hard dps checks and it's a low level dungeon) so that the tank can get experience, they kick. I see that as a sign of a bad dps, not a bad tank. Obviously the situation is different at higher levels where rotation knowledge can be (mostly) expected, but advice should still be offered before raging.

Frankly, if someone goes into a low level dungeon unprepared to offer advice then I think it would be better to find a nice endgame static to raid with.

[silvach]

Wow, I honestly did not expect to see so much hate, and especially not with the undertone of a personal attack based on a valid opinion.

Thankfully I've never struggled to hold agro, probably because I understand and have experience of MMOs . However, for a new tank, doing their main quest who hasn't played an MMO before, being thrust into a dungeon and expected to hold agro against experienced i100 players is unreasonable. No, the rotations are not difficult, but planning the fights can be, and at low level (especially pre provoke) those new tanks have very little way to get enmity back if they lose it.


Picture this situation, a new tank goes into a dungeon, say Halatali, which I believe syncs to 24(?), with two i100 dps and an i100 healer. The new tank has picked up the quest when they could, at 22(?) , so they've probably got level 20 gear. The tank even says at the start they are new and haven't done it before. The tank is struggling to keep agro against the dps who have practiced for months and are in top tier gear. The dps and healer, rather than offer advice, shout some sort of toxic vitriol about the tank being useless, saying they should give up, and kick the tank. Who's in the wrong? The tank is trying their hardest, but rather than offer some constructive advice and scale back their dps (not unreasonable given that there are no hard dps checks and it's a low level dungeon) so that the tank can get experience, they kick. I see that as a sign of a bad dps, not a bad tank. Obviously the situation is different at higher levels where rotation knowledge can be (mostly) expected, but advice should still be offered before raging.

Frankly, if someone goes into a low level dungeon unprepared to offer advice then I think it would be better to find a nice endgame static to raid with.

I don't agree. The poor tank that is thrown into the dungeon could have read something about his role before. It's not like he played roulette and someone selected the Tank class for him. He did it with the full knowledge of what he does. Tank is tank and that will never change if someone is completely new to MMOs than please educate about it. It's wrong that we say that it's acceptable for people to learn everything on-go and being totally unprepared when going into the dungeon. They should AT LEAST try basic rotation on dummy/creep and see that flash has range.

You say that everyone should be forgiving and calm and should guide others through the classes THEY are playing. Why we have so lowered expectations? Shouldn't the player learn about his role from every possible source before going into the dungeons? So we are now justifying lazybones players?

I won't blame a tank for losing agro when DPS pulls something, but I will if he does not use his skills properly. I think we don't understand each other. I don't hate tanks that are struggling and trying (I have never saw a tank who tries as much as possible and lose aggro) I hate those who uses flash before pull, who activate and deactivate "defiance" "sword oath" all the time because they think it is a spammable skill to use, who prefer to not use any cooldowns during the run because they don't even know them or those who use all CDs at once even if it makes no sense. I hate those tanks that don't open with shield lob when pulling on-run, and those who does not use provoke to lure the roamers from the group. Also I really have enough of those tank that never ever use their stuns and decided to stay in aoe no matter what (saying that healer should heal them no matter what). And I will never, ever even try to school them. If they are too ignorant to READ the description of their skills then how the hell you think they will react to guiding?

[Kydi]

Like I said, in the example the tank is trying his hardest. I think we can assume tying means they have read up on the class a bit and know roughly what's going on.

I said that players should be forgiving in low level content (by that I mean pretty much any pre-50). In pretty much any MMO the leveling content is there to gradually introduce mechanics to players and prepare them for the real game, endgame. Players who go into low level roulette have to realise that they hey are likely to have someone who hasn't done it, perhaps who isn't confident in their role, or perhaps just isn't very good. If that's going to be a problem, don't do it. If people want consistently high calibre players all the time, then they should find a static.

Regarding how players react to guiding, who knows until you try? Even if a player has read their skills, they may not apply them if unfamiliar with the way the game works. Gladiator running in and just flashing, suggest they use shield lob whilst running in. I expect 4/5 players would listen and start, probably thank you for the advice too. Obviously you will get the odd one who won't listen, and that's a different conversation, but this attitude of having to understand and apply every bit of the class when someone new probably just went "ooh, sword and shield looks cool" is detrimental to the community.

And on that note, I suspect I've hit the post limit for the day.

[AlexPayne]

LOL @ read guides and learn all about the game before you play it. Where the hell did the fun in games go? May as well just read about games than play them, if this is the ridiculous route people want to take.

[Mjytresz]

Where the hell did the fun in games go?

I was a big fan of this ideology until about 10 years ago when I stepped into my first party.
There's a lot of fun to be had in games. Reading a guide doesn't make you a professional. Similarly, getting matched with someone who knows nothing of his class or role isn't fun for the 3 other people who are stuck with you. If you're queueing as a DPS, that's a good 10+ minute wait that just went to waste because of an incompetent tank.
I recently started partying with a WAR. Went into my first dungeon with only general experience of tanking in various other games. The results were relatively disastrous. I had no idea how to manage my TP and, as a result, found myself running dry when I needed to OP a pack.
Didn't take more than browsing a guide to learn the basics of TP and a few minutes of practice to effectively use it.

tl;dr if being an idiot is fun for you than do it on your own time

[Ashkendor]

stuff

...What did I just read here? Sure, if someone has played previous MMO's they will probably have a basic understanding of the tank-heal-dps trinity and how they fit into it. Players that have at least experienced some form of MMO gaming before can be expected to have done a little more research/testing on how to play their character and how their skills work. There are, however, the truly new players as well; they are completely new to gaming and their experience with the character classes boils down to "wow I like the guy with the big axe, I'll be him." Honestly, I see nothing wrong with offering advice - it's up to them to apply it.

[silvach]

...What did I just read here?

Am I wrong or this game is MMO where your gameplay and ability to play your role is affecting other players? Yes it is. You need to know that this game is not single player and have some other requirements than single player one. Not reading about your class or not doing any research about your skills before going into the dungeon is just laziness. Stop being overprotecting and start having any expectations or soon every bad tank will start claiming that it's not his fault he is bad it's fault of the people that didn't schooled him enough or schooled him wrong.

[Aloreal]

stuff to take not on

What you are saying is to be kind to truly new players in mmos. the ones that have never, ever picked up an mmo and they roll tank as their first class just cause they heard from their friends/older sibling that they are the most sought out classes. there is a reason tanks and healers are the most sought out classes in any mmo. the responsibility of it. if they cant rise to the challenge then why they are doing it? there is an overabundance of casual tanks that do jack and dont take advice from anyone. its not 4/5 who take advice. its more like 1/5 who do and i see it all the time when im running healer. then we get moaners in the forums and a buff to a class just because nowadays we like to be spoonfed, and then we moan that there is not enough content cause we rushed it within the spoonfeeding period. beautiful. i coultn care about this discussion, its already a feeding contest. just dont pass new mmo players as someone who needs to be pampered. not when they playing a pivotal role in the game