Tank disrespect.

[Codek]

Ok let's talk about this for a second. You ran AK to complete you relic quest on a class that you were [1] completely outclassed by the damage dealers (to use your own words), [2] and probably inexperienced with because it wasn't your main job (even if you know the rotations by default your going to be less skilled than most [i say most because there are some people out there who are so bad they should just stop playing] who plays the job as their main.

You have a monk who is most likely much more geared than your paladin so why not collect myth gear or a primal weapon before switching jobs so your not a liability to the rest of the group. People in this game are very selfish. Your going in to a dungeon where you know your going to have trouble and place the rest of the group at a disadvantage. So instead of working to fix the problem you say to hell with it, other people will just have to suffer because I'm selfish. Now for those who are fresh 50s they don't have the luxury that you do. They can't run primals to get an easy quick primal weapon. Another factor that helps to prove my point. You can craft your own ilvl70 gear. Therefore there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE to be anything less than ilvl 70 when you hit 50. Once again you prove that yes in deed you are a bad\lazy\selfish player.

My last point is regarding your scenario. While I can't say for certain because I wasn't in the dungeon, it's entirely possible that even though you marked which DPS to kill first you were probably attacking the wrong target. When I switch to a DPS job I can't tell you the countless number of times I've seen a tank not attack the summoner adds first. If your not killing the summoner first chances are I'm going to kill it first regardless of which boss your attacking (same concept with bees and bombs). So again, I wasn't there and can't say for sure, but if your not attacking the right target the dps will assume your stupid and attack the right one for you.

While I agree that ilvl 68 is adequate for clearing Amdapor Keep you also have to remember that this game has been out for quite some time now. Usually the only time someone will run AK, is if they get it through roulette, or they are completing a relic quest. If you only needed the quest for your relic and you obviously know your going to be worthless in the dungeon why not get your friends to run the dungeon with you. This IMO would be the polite thing to do instead of being a selfish liability for the rest of the group.

TLDR Yes you are a bad tank...get better gear and try again

Did you really just attempt to make an argument that an i68 tank should not participate in AK unless they are i70?

Are you serious?

[Naryoril]

People in this game are very selfish. Your going in to a dungeon where you know your going to have trouble and place the rest of the group at a disadvantage. So instead of working to fix the problem you say to hell with it, other people will just have to suffer because I'm selfish.

...

You can craft your own ilvl70 gear. Therefore there is ABSOLUTELY NO EXCUSE to be anything less than ilvl 70 when you hit 50. Once again you prove that yes in deed you are a bad\lazy\selfish player.

...

it's entirely possible that even though you marked which DPS to kill first you were probably attacking the wrong target.

..

If you only needed the quest for your relic and you obviously know your going to be worthless in the dungeon why not get your friends to run the dungeon with you. This IMO would be the polite thing to do instead of being a selfish liability for the rest of the group.

TLDR Yes you are a bad tank...get better gear and try again

Let me address a few points here

Yes, obviously there are some really selfish players here, thinking "how does this player dare to be geared worse than i am? He'll take up 5 minutes of my gametime. I was always perfect in every regard." You know, you only improve your tanking by actually doing it, and you only really learn it if you are at your limits. If you only ever run dungeons when its horribly easy to tank, you will never be able to do it right when things start to go wrong.

On top of that: i was on a break for a few months and i resubbed because some friends started playing (i also changed server because of this). Last time i played, there was only ever one person who thought you are a liability in AK with iLvl below 70 and abandoned FC members in there because of that. As a consequence he was kicked from the FC. Note: This was before the dungeon was nerfed.

And: In all the later runs in there (or any other dungeon from the high level duty roulette) i never had a group dealing that much damage again. Nor did the healer i was with during that run (he's the only of my friends who was lvl 50 at the time).
So much about knowing being at a disadvantage/liability.

Now to the next part: So you suggest before people go to a dungeon where iLvl 55 or 60 gear drops, you have to grind the crafting profession for that class to 50 and craft iLvl 70 gear? Don't you see what's wrong with this trail of thought?

Next: If there are 2 mobs of the same type and the DD attacks the one which was not marked, it can't be the wrong target. Even if, why not simply tell the tank? I'll pick that up again in the TL;DR.

Next: Most of my friends were behind in level (since my paladin was already around 35 when i resubbed, in connection with the 50% higher-class-xp-bonus and the 50% rested-xp-bonus), even now we can just barely put a group of 4 people together. And since i changed server, i don't know anyone else here.

TL;DR: You apparently are the kind of unhelpful elitist player new players often complain about.

[Nabian]

Let me address a few points here

Yes, obviously there are some really selfish players here, thinking "how does this player dare to be geared worse than i am? He'll take up 5 minutes of my gametime. I was always perfect in every regard." You know, you only improve your tanking by actually doing it, and you only really learn it if you are at your limits. If you only ever run dungeons when its horribly easy to tank, you will never be able to do it right when things start to go wrong.

On top of that: i was on a break for a few months and i resubbed because some friends started playing (i also changed server because of this). Last time i played, there was only ever one person who thought you are a liability in AK with iLvl below 70 and abandoned FC members in there because of that. As a consequence he was kicked from the FC. Note: This was before the dungeon was nerfed.

And: In all the later runs in there (or any other dungeon from the high level duty roulette) i never had a group dealing that much damage again. Nor did the healer i was with during that run (he's the only of my friends who was lvl 50 at the time).
So much about knowing being at a disadvantage/liability.

Now to the next part: So you suggest before people go to a dungeon where iLvl 55 or 60 gear drops, you have to grind the crafting profession for that class to 50 and craft iLvl 70 gear? Don't you see what's wrong with this trail of thought?

Next: If there are 2 mobs of the same type and the DD attacks the one which was not marked, it can't be the wrong target. Even if, why not simply tell the tank? I'll pick that up again in the TL;DR.

Next: Most of my friends were behind in level (since my paladin was already around 35 when i resubbed, in connection with the 50% higher-class-xp-bonus and the 50% rested-xp-bonus), even now we can just barely put a group of 4 people together. And since i changed server, i don't know anyone else here.

TL;DR: You apparently are the kind of unhelpful elitist player new players often complain about.

First off your not holding one player back your holding 3 others back. Secondly, I never said it was "unacceptable to run AK in less than i70 gear" but lets be realistic. Ilvl 70 gear is absurdly cheap and there is no reason not to level a craft or purchase the items off the MB. From completing the main story alone you should have 200-300k gil. Why not buy it?

The reason the dungeon drops ilvl55 gear (ak doesn't drop ilvl60 gear afaik anymore) is because it was designed to be run by lower level 50s when it was first released. As a player who is late to the game you are at a severe disadvantage. It is your job to minimize that disadvantage as best as possible.

Lastly...elitists?! hardly. If a new player is struggling I have no problems giving helpful advice. The OP was complaining about holding hate, I provided suggestions. If players are struggling because of their laziness or lack of intelligence is when I get frustrated.

[MeiUshu]

@Nabian,

I dont let people die, which each time I did Halatali, because I refuse to even attempt Toto Rak with this level of incapacity at keeping aggro, I fell on groups that were Ilvl70+ (sync of course), so whatever they were doing was just putting them well above me in terms of aggro, it isnt that I was leaving them die, they just didnt die, so once the aggro was taken, and I had no more MP to flash, I simply concentrated on one or two targets and let the rest. I even had a problem with a summoner, I told him to send his pet on a different target then the one marked, at least that would take care of one aggro less. It was THAT frustrating that I understood at that moment why many people dont want to be PLDs or even play tanking anymore.

All of the people I was with were though very nice, it isnt like they didnt see I was trying my best *lol*...my gear lvl was the best I could find considering that the dungeon I was in at that moment was the dungeon where I could have received higher gears. My weapon was the highest I could get or even craft, gears were the highest I could find or even craft and STILL no way to keep aggro ...I used the combos described in here, I unconsciously even used what it needs before using provoke and nothing !! Imagine my frustration ..I have to be fair though, all of them said the same, it will get better when you get Shield oath..until t hen you will struggle and as a tank it shouldnt be this way. I shouldt have to struggle TO THAT Point to keep aggro. I dont mind struggling but here is no more struggle is just plain dumb and makes you feel useless.

Maybe with Rage of Halone it will go better dont know, I can only hope.

Mei

[Daniolaut]

like we already did not spam OP and Flash enough,

There's your issue. Flash is crap. As a Marauder/Warrior, never use flash unless youre running low on TP and have proper threat on all mobs (i.e. Skull Sunder, Butchers block combo, or AoE generation via Overpower.)

The game doesnt need reworking, Paladin does. Again, dont use flash pretty much ever as a warrior unless you literally have almost no TP.

As a tank you have two choices, keep threat or help healers. At low levels basically yes you'll be working mostly only to keep threat. It gets fun at 50 and keeping threat is so much easier

Happy gaming.

Edit/Note:

The key to keeping threat is not so much your gear vs dps gear, its your -weapon- vs dps -weapon- if you make sure you upgrade any piece of equipment always make sure you have the highest level piece of equipment you can possibly get.

(Which is also another reason why flash is such a horrible joke.)

[Naryoril]

Lastly...elitists?! hardly. If a new player is struggling I have no problems giving helpful advice. The OP was complaining about holding hate, I provided suggestions. If players are struggling because of their laziness or lack of intelligence is when I get frustrated.

"Only my way is the right way, and if somone does it differently i don't care about their reasons, may they be correct or wrong, and i still do it my way without talking with anyone about it, no matter what problems this may cause to the group. And if they don't abide by my rules, they are bad and/or lazy players, i don't care about their circumstances or if they have an inherent disadvantage compared to me."

If this isn't elitist, then what is?

Or why do you just attack the targets you deem most important and not the one the tank marks? If you are so helpful, why don't you tell the tank he should mark another target first, and also tell him why you think so? Maybe the tank has his reasons which are equally or even more valid as yours and you can learn something from it? Unless you are an elitist who is always right and being wrong is out of the question. And maybe you are completely right, the tank will thank you and change the killing order in the future and everyone will be satisfied.

If you are that annoyed by random people who are not up to your standards, be it by skill, gear, time investment or any other measure, then play with people from your FC. Helping out other people who are not as good (by whatever measure) and/or who don't know enough people to do always do the dungeons with, is the major point of the duty roulette. If you use it, then expect to run into those people.

[Nabian]

@Nabian,

I dont let people die, which each time I did Halatali, because I refuse to even attempt Toto Rak with this level of incapacity at keeping aggro, I fell on groups that were Ilvl70+ (sync of course), so whatever they were doing was just putting them well above me in terms of aggro, it isnt that I was leaving them die, they just didnt die, so once the aggro was taken, and I had no more MP to flash, I simply concentrated on one or two targets and let the rest. I even had a problem with a summoner, I told him to send his pet on a different target then the one marked, at least that would take care of one aggro less. It was THAT frustrating that I understood at that moment why many people dont want to be PLDs or even play tanking anymore.

All of the people I was with were though very nice, it isnt like they didnt see I was trying my best *lol*...my gear lvl was the best I could find considering that the dungeon I was in at that moment was the dungeon where I could have received higher gears. My weapon was the highest I could get or even craft, gears were the highest I could find or even craft and STILL no way to keep aggro ...I used the combos described in here, I unconsciously even used what it needs before using provoke and nothing !! Imagine my frustration ..I have to be fair though, all of them said the same, it will get better when you get Shield oath..until t hen you will struggle and as a tank it shouldnt be this way. I shouldt have to struggle TO THAT Point to keep aggro. I dont mind struggling but here is no more struggle is just plain dumb and makes you feel useless.

Maybe with Rage of Halone it will go better dont know, I can only hope.

Mei

In regards to your gear I'm glad you had the best gear. Have you considered trying to place all your stat points into strength or wear strength accessories (instead of vit). I know for many this helps them hold aggro at low levels. It is definitely more challenging to hold hate without Rage of Halone and Shield Oath but its not impossible. The more you run those dungeons (because unfortunately SE is determined to force old content down your throat at later levels) the better you get at managing aggro in those situations.

Another alternative is to play warrior. Warriors have a much easier time managing aggro at low levels because of how strong overpower is.

"Only my way is the right way, and if somone does it differently i don't care about their reasons, may they be correct or wrong, and i still do it my way without talking with anyone about it, no matter what problems this may cause to the group. And if they don't abide by my rules, they are bad and/or lazy players, i don't care about their circumstances or if they have an inherent disadvantage compared to me."

If this isn't elitist, then what is?

Or why do you just attack the targets you deem most important and not the one the tank marks? If you are so helpful, why don't you tell the tank he should mark another target first, and also tell him why you think so? Maybe the tank has his reasons which are equally or even more valid as yours and you can learn something from it? Unless you are an elitist who is always right and being wrong is out of the question. And maybe you are completely right, the tank will thank you and change the killing order in the future and everyone will be satisfied.

If you are that annoyed by random people who are not up to your standards, be it by skill, gear, time investment or any other measure, then play with people from your FC. Helping out other people who are not as good (by whatever measure) and/or who don't know enough people to do always do the dungeons with, is the major point of the duty roulette. If you use it, then expect to run into those people.

Let's play things your way for a second. We'll use The Sunken Temple of Qarn as an example. There is a mob in the dungeon called "Temple Bee" if not killed fast enough this mob will cast "Final Sting" a move that will typically one shot most players who are hit by it. In many cases these Bees are not alone but come in a pack of mobs. Now..in this scenario the tank marks the wrong mob (ie, not the bee), the tank gets hit by final sting and dies. Because we are fighting a pack of mobs the party wipes (I know this is highly unlikely at this level as most dd are still sturdy enough at this point to survive long enough to kill the mobs).

OR

Party fights a group and there is a temple bee. The DD attacks the bee instead the "marked mob." Either one of two situations will happen the tank will realize that he is the only one attacking the marked mob and switch; or the DD will take hate away from the tank and the tank will switch to try and get it back (there is a third option that the tank just stands there and refuses to switch but unless he is bad that is unlikely). The Bee dies, the rest of the pack dies, the group moves on happily. Then afterward the DD can explain to the tank that he is pulling the wrong mob because the Bee needs to die before it cast final sting. Everyone is happy!

Also...I never said my way is the only way. I also have no problem being wrong and will gladly admit it when other show evidence otherwise. I'll even agree there are multiple ways to skin a cat, but...there are also some universal truths and basic game principles that should be followed. Like twisters in T5. Since they nerfed the fight you don't have to run in any stupid circular pattern...you just run. How you choose to run is entirely up to you...but if you don't run your going to die. If you run into someone else..your probably going to die and kill them too.

[ks3v3n]

Another alternative is to play warrior. Warriors have a much easier time managing aggro at low levels because of how strong overpower is.

plds knowing their skills, dont have any prob either

[Nabian]

plds knowing their skills, dont have any prob either

Couldn't agree with you more haha, but heaven forbid I say anything bad about players otherwise I might be considered an elitist.

[Nukocafe]

I've found that the only time I lose aggro is if
a) I'm wearing crap gear so I can't hold it to begin with
b) DPS vastly outgear me in a dungeon without level sync spamming AOEs (i.e. ilvl 90 bard vs my ilvl68 tank)
c) I zone out and forget to do a flash every few seconds/rotate between targets

A can be solved with gear upgrades, B you can't help other than just upgrading gear again, and C well just comes from practice. Good luck!