Ramuh: A History and Speculation

[LaurelinKementari]

Ah, but you would think that if you were tempered wouldn't you. You would be incapable of seeing Hydaelyn as anything other than the way, the truth and the light and would seek arguments to justify that belief.

Just saying...

But a tempered soul can only worship the primal that tempered it (and are very zealous about it, too), which isn't the case with the Echo. Even if we leave the Adventurer out of it, take Minfilia. She also has the echo, but I don't see her running around shouting Hydaelyn is the one true god on top of her lungs.

Though, that did make me wonder: does anyone know if Minfilia at any point in the story worships or swears by the Twelve? Just out of memory, I only recall her saying "walk in the light of the crystal", but can't immediately recall any instance where she talked about the Twelve as if she believed (or worshipped) in them.

[Kicha]

She uses the line "Twleve Preserve" quite a few times...most notably at the end of the 2.2 storyline.

[Lucke]

I'd guess the story of him is something like, since he's peaceful (as peaceful as a Primal can be), we try a diplomatic approach. Telling him that by him defending the sylphs, he's killing their home just by existing. This doesn't sit well with him, and he tells us we're wrong or some such and get gets mad and attacks us. I think we'll actually be on the defense here. We outright went to the primals to attack them, with Ramuh however, we go there to talk to him but in the end, have to defend ourselves.

[MercuryD]

I think it can be safely assumed that Ramuh shouldn't be on the warpath, necessarily. As was previously mentioned, he isn't aggressive and is ONLY interested in protecting the Shroud. If you notice, the touched ones never leave Larkscall or the Syphlands and that they're only going after the normal, non-touched ones. Ramuh's central trait is defense of the home. He was summoned to protect the Shroud and bring the escaped ones back "home".

Btw, here's the dialogue for the Frixio-Papalymo scene in which they mention Ramuh: http://xivdb.com/?quest/66280/Believe-in-Your-Sylph

[Enkidoh]

But a tempered soul can only worship the primal that tempered it (and are very zealous about it, too), which isn't the case with the Echo. Even if we leave the Adventurer out of it, take Minfilia. She also has the echo, but I don't see her running around shouting Hydaelyn is the one true god on top of her lungs.

Though, that did make me wonder: does anyone know if Minfilia at any point in the story worships or swears by the Twelve? Just out of memory, I only recall her saying "walk in the light of the crystal", but can't immediately recall any instance where she talked about the Twelve as if she believed (or worshipped) in them.

Minfilia most definitely believes in the Twelve at least (although it's not known which specific deity she worships, although as she is from Ala Mhigo originally by birth Rhalgr would be a good choice), as she named her predecessor research organization of Echo-users The Path of the Twelve in version 1.0, as it was first believed the Echo was actually granted by the Twelve (although Minfilia was not entirely convinced herself about whether that was indeed the case or not).

It should be noted though in 1.0 there was no actual references to Hydaelyn or the Mothercrystal at all, other than a single ambiguous line made by one of the Archons about 'the One who gave the player the Echo', so it's likely the knowledge of Hydaelyn has only become commonplace recently. Or, it could just be another retcon. Either way, without any mention of Hydaelyn in 1.0, it's only natural therefore that Minfilia and her colleagues researching the Echo would have come to the logical conclusion it was the Twelve responsible, even if that actually didn't turn out to be the case.

As for tempering and the Echo, as you mentioned there's just too much difference between the two to regard the Echo as 'Hydaelyn tempering us' - a tempered becomes a mindless slave of the Primal who tempered them which the Primal leeches devotion from. The Echo on the other hand merely grants those so gifted (this is an important point, how the Echo is always mentioned as being 'a gift'), several unique abilities that in the real world we would call psychic (and this is in a fantasy world where magic exists). How they then use that power however is completely up to them. If they wish to hide themselves away from the world or to use their Echo powers for selfish or self-serving ends, it's up to them (in fact, 1.0 clearly showed this - the Waking Sands in 1.0 was full of Echo users from all walks of life - merchants, farmers and craftspeople, including people who regarded the Echo as having driven them to murder out of jealousy, and even people who had turned the information gained through the Echo into a business. And as adventurers, we are the same.

Yes we're guided by Hydaelyn through the Echo, but we're not forced against our will. She simply gives us visions, telling us along the lines of "this is happening, it's bad. These guys are responsible.The world's existence is threatened. Please help me!" And we comply and help simply because that's who we are. We're adventurers. We go wherever money, power and fame take us. It just so happens we're granted an extraordinary ability to do so and are backed up by the planet Herself.

[Icecylee]

Minfilia most definitely believes in the Twelve at least (although it's not known which specific deity she worships, although as she is from Ala Mhigo originally by birth Rhalgr would be a good choice), as she named her predecessor research organization of Echo-users The Path of the Twelve in version 1.0, as it was first believed the Echo was actually granted by the Twelve (although Minfilia was not entirely convinced herself about whether that was indeed the case or not).

Kind of nitpicky, but the path of the twelve wasn't really Minfilia's in the sense that you're implying. She wasn't the founder or even the leader of it - just the person that was left in charge of it when the actual leader mysteriously vanished (left with little warning? I can't remember exactly if she knew why the leader left or not, it's been a while. I *do* remember her just being the "temporary" acting leader being a point though).

[Enkidoh]

Well, she was known originally as Acting Antecedent, but there was never any explanation as to when or who had founded the Path originally as far as I know of. And considering Minfilia has now upgraded her position to full Antecedent rather than just 'acting', it seems to me she was actually the one who founded it, as no one else was ever shown in the Path to be even remotely qualified as a suitable successor or predecessor (remember also, she saw the starshower in Ul'dah as a child circa 1562 6AE which is when, it is believed, the Echo first sounded). But the important thing is the Path believed that it was the Twelve who were responsible for granting people the Echo - even though Minfilia herself was having doubts.

But yes, nothing is known for certainty about who founded the Path. I guess I just assumed Minfilia was actually the one who did so, as she's the only one shown in a leadership position, and their early history was never revealed.

[Icecylee]

Like I said, nitpicky. :P It's entirely likely that she was around for the founding, but I somewhat doubt she was the founder considering how young she was, combined with the fact that the path had been around for a while and had a different leader originally. Gah I wish I knew an easy way to find the 1.x scripts since the former leader was only vaguely mentioned once, maybe twice. I don't think anything was really said regardless. It might not actually be important and/or could have been retconned, I only even mentioned it since it was a bullet point in the back story I had always found sort of interesting and wasn't really arguing your main point. Either way, done derailing now.

[Morningstar1337]

I'm gonna go ahead and say that The founder might have been Louisoux.

[Enkidoh]

That's actually not correct - Louisoix ran a completely separate group of Sharlayan scholars that he and the other Archons originally belonged to called 'The Circle of Knowing' - they were completely separate from the Path of the Twelve and originally had nothing to do with them. It was only after the Calamity and Louisoix's disappearance did the rest of the Circle seek out Minfilia "and others with the Echo" and joined them, Minfilia offering to amalgamate the Path with the Circle, leading to the formation of the new organization, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn. Y'shtola actually mentions this in ARR when you first join the Scions.