This needs to be stopped, and immediately.

[Gallus]

So because CM can be completed with a tank, a healer and two DPS (or one I don't care)...that automatically means that 4 other players potentially watching cutscenes are NOT disrupting the party and hindering the others. If that's what you mean then I don't think you know what "disrupt" means. As for your "morals and standard" and "white knighting the group that is grifefing new players", I'm sure people that view a cutscene while you /sit for 20 minutes have a lot of respect for you and your time.

[Blackweaver]

So because CM can be completed with a tank, a healer and two DPS (or one I don't care)...that automatically means that 4 other players potentially watching cutscenes are NOT disrupting the party and hindering the others. If that's what you mean then I don't think you know what "disrupt" means. As for your "morals and standard" and "white knighting the group that is grifefing new players", I'm sure people that view a cutscene while you /sit for 20 minutes have a lot of respect for you and your time, so please, go and keep siding with them, they obviously care about you.

I can tell ya that doing the end boss, doesn't require everyone be in there. Even if a CS watcher is busy watching the video, the group can still pull and kill the end boss. The CS watcher isn't holding the group up. 7/8 people in i90+ gear can't beat a boss without the i55 geared newbie? Please. If the group is that bad, then replacing a newbie wont do them any good to begin with. Guess what. When I was leveling my white mage, I watched the cutscenes. I had a scholar demand I skip the cut scenes. I refused telling her that I was there for the story and she doesn't own my account and doesn't get to dictate how I enjoy the game I pay for. The group beat the end boss, even though I was still in the cutscene about halfway through. I didn't hold the group up. And yes this was before vote kick came out.

So again, the cutscene viewer isn't disrupting the group, especially if said group got to the end boss without their help. If the cutscene viewer was making an effort to try to catch up between cutscenes, then they are not afk, and they certainly are not disrupting the group. The end boss does not wait for every single person to be in his room to begin the fight. Groups that wait till then to vote kick, aren't being disrupted, and more than likely never spoke up at the beginning of the dungeon about what they wanted to give the newbie a chance to decide if they wanted to do like the group or leave. They wait to vote kick at that point for 1 reason and 1 reason only: prevent new player from finishing their quest. That's it. It's a form of griefing plain and simple.

[Gallus]

Hurr Durr

Not every single party consists of 7 i90 evil griefers and one poor nice cool i50 cutscene watcher guy. That's "your perfect scenario" but it does NOT always match the reality. You can perfectly have 3 i60 players, and 3 i70 players, and then, 2 "cool and nice" cutscene watchers, and one of them being a healer. And then you have an i60 healer having to solo heal through the entire dungeon because the other dude is watching the cutscenes. And then you wipe. In CM/Prae. Yep. I've been there. 3 people watching cutscenes in Prae. Having to go with 4 "MEH" players (were NOT i90) against Nero Tol Scaeva. Hands outnumbering us and permaknocking us back. Wipe. The other 3 cool guys, who have a lot of respect for us and our time, watching their cutscenes on the meantime. That's so so so bloody nice let me tell ya.

[Blackweaver]

Not every single party consists of 7 i90 evil griefers and one poor nice cool i50 cutscene watcher guy. That's "your perfect scenario" but it does NOT always match the reality. You can perfectly have 3 i60 players, and 3 i70 players, and then, 2 "cool and nice" cutscene watchers, and one of them being a healer. And then you have an i60 healer having to solo heal through the entire dungeon because the other dude is watching the cutscenes. And then you wipe. In CM/Prae. Yep. I've been there. 3 people watching cutscenes in Prae. Having to go with 4 "MEH" players (were NOT i90) against Nero Tol Scaeva. Hands outnumbering us and permaknocking us back. Wipe. The other 3 cool guys, who have a lot of respect for us and our time, watching their cutscenes on the meantime. That's so so so bloody nice let me tell ya.

Thing is though, these ARE "Storymode" dungeons. So I do feel it is unreasonable to dictate people that are there, to not experience the story if they are first timers. I know if I want a fast dungeon run, I'd queue for anything BUT a storymode dungeon. Even as a roulette. Course I can't do high level roulette, because certain HM's I can't do because of computer limitations. So I tend to stick to roulettes I can do for myth.

[Darki]

You keep using those words... I don't think they mean what you think they mean... o.O

Read the bottom of this post.

Uh you know the main story dungeons can be completed with 1 tank, 1 healer and 2 dps, even though they are 8 man dungeons. So half the group could be new and watch the cutscenes and it would not disrupt the group. If anything if people waited till the end boss to vote kick a newbie, that means the newbie isn't disrupting the group at all. The group was able to keep moving along even if the newbie was a bit further back from the main boss. And more than likely the group was made up of i90+ wearing players, while the newbie, would be i55. So even if the newbie did skip, how effective would they be compared to the max gear people?

Sorry but when a group gets to end boss and boots CS viewers, it's not from disruption of group progress. It's ONLY to deny the new player the ability to finish their story quest. If anything that group is disrupting the newbies gameplay by preventing them from getting their quest done, thus unable to advance the story. It's griefing and your justification and white knighting the group that is griefing such players, only makes yourself look bad. And no, I wont play with griefers and nasty people. I have moral standards even if you do not.

Also, calling me a dictator... classy. And in case you don't get it, that's sarcasm. Democracy is all about if you don't like something, work towards changing it. In this case, some people don't like being bullied and griefed by elitists who are out to prevent them from finishing the main story, even if they aren't holding the group up at all. So people like myself offered suggestions to help minimize new player griefing. Maybe make all of CM's and Prae's cutscenes unskippable. If no one can skip the cutscenes at all in there, then no one will have a leg to stand on when it comes to a vote kick of newbies. That would solve all the problems right there. Keep the awards of myth the same, just make the cutscenes unskippable, and immune to the skip previously viewed cutscenes feature.

You are probably right about that. It's not a feature I would like to see implemented but if the majority says they want it then ok.

1. you forgot the word "disruption" in the harassment description (or maybe you left it out intentionally.) Any action that disrupts the game for anyone else counts as harassment. Don't believe me? See for yourself... http://support.na.square-enix.com/ru...1&tag=users_en (Section 3.2)

2. Your analogy doesn't work at all because the "innocent" person in your story isn't disrupting the movie or the movie experience for the rest of the audience.
In a main story run, the individual who stops to watch a CS is not functioning and thus hindering the party and those in it.

Bring it on, dictator.

I left number one in the quote because you clearly didn't read what was inside the link Also, "Disrupt" and "hinder" are not the same thing as "Preventing." I take the time to choose my words carefully. Please do the same.

Your right about a light party (1 tank 1 healer 2 DPSs) being able to complete main story duties but that does not excuse people for leaching off the party. The very least a player can do is contribute and help the party that is getting him/her the win in the first place. Not kick back with soda, popcorn and watch a movie. However as I said, if the votes say it's ok then who am I to argue? Democracy has spoken. Perhaps one day you and I will be in the same party. This issue will come up and maybe the party will vote in your favor instead of mine.



The differences between you and me in case you still can't see it:

1. If my vote loses, I won't storm out of the pt in a childish tantrum. I will just continue to do my job (Usually healer) because that is what a decent human being would do.

2. Unlike you, I take the time to know what I am talking about before I type/speak. A bare necessity when studying in college.

3. Yes. You are by definition a dictator. There is a long list of other titles you deserve but out of that list, dictator was the most "classy."

Also, since you (and a few others in this thread) clearly don't own a dictionary...or use Google, i'll do the "oh so hard" research for you.


Disrupt:
1. Interrupt (an event, activity, or process) by causing a disturbance or problem.
2. Drastically alter or destroy the structure of (something.)

Hinder:
Create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.

Prevent
1. Keep (something) from happening or arising.
2. Make (someone or something) unable to do something.

Dictator
1. A ruler with total power over a country, typically one who has obtained power by force.
2. A person who tells people what to do in an autocratic way or who determines behavior in a particular sphere. (Sound like someone you know?)

Democracy
1. A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives
2. A state governed by a democracy
3. Control of an organization or group by the majority of its members(Ding ding ding!!!)
4. The practice or principles of social equality <--(This one in my opinion is just common sense.)

Source: http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us


And before you say it, kicking a CS watcher prevents them from hindering or disrupting the party. Amazing how much more clout a post can have when the poster actually knows the definition of the words that he/she types don't you think?

[Blackweaver]

Your right about a light party (1 tank 1 healer 2 DPSs) being able to complete main story duties but that does not excuse people for leaching off the party. The very least a player can do is contribute and help the party that is getting him/her the win in the first place. Not kick back with soda, popcorn and watch a movie. However as I said, if the votes say it's ok then who am I to argue? Democracy has spoken. Perhaps one day you and I will be in the same party. This issue will come up and maybe the party will vote in your favor instead of mine.

If a new player watches the cut scenes but continues trying to catch up and participate, then they are not "leeching" off the party as you put it. What you described is someone that sits at the entrance and is basically afk. If someone though is making an effort to try to catch up to the group between cutscenes and still gets vote kicked, then that is the problem. If they just sit at the entrance and do nothing, then they deserve to be kicked. It is a 2 way street. If the group boots the person that is trying to catch up to the group between the cutscenes, then no, I wont play with griefers. It's not throwing a tantrum, it's called not supporting toxic behavior. If the person who got booted is the second healer, well then that "Speed Run" is over. Because they will have lost both healers from their pigheadedness.

I'm a nice person, but I also don't put up with bullying and griefing. And I refuse to play with people that behave like that. If there is someone that just sits at the entrance to watch the cutscenes and doing nothing, then yeah, vote kick em for not even trying. My first time through I watched ALL the cutscenes, and I was still pretty close by to the group, making an effort to keep up, participated when the cutscene ended. I was there for story, and I got my runs done in 1 shot both times.

When it came to the Ultima fight, someone decided to pull during the cutscene. I continued watching the cutscene regardless, and when the scene ended, the second healer died, and I picked up the slack and we finished the fight. In my case, I watched the cutscenes, but made an effort to contribute. Regardless, when it comes to bad behavior, or griefing, yeah I will complain. It's the beauty of a democracy. If something seems wrong or broken, people can protest and try to make a change for the better.

You like throwing the term dictator around a lot. Tell me, who is the real dictator in these 2 groups:

Group 1 - Do was I say! Skip the cutscene! I will have the group vote kick you if you don't do as I say! Play how I want you to play or else!

Group 2 - I'm here to have fun and enjoy the story. I will try to catch up and participate if you are willing to be patient. If you aren't that is fine as well, I just want to experience for myself, the story and have fun.

[Darki]

If a new player watches the cut scenes but continues trying to catch up and participate, then they are not "leeching" off the party as you put it. What you described is someone that sits at the entrance and is basically afk. If someone though is making an effort to try to catch up to the group between cutscenes and still gets vote kicked, then that is the problem. If they just sit at the entrance and do nothing, then they deserve to be kicked. It is a 2 way street. If the group boots the person that is trying to catch up to the group between the cutscenes, then no, I wont play with griefers. It's not throwing a tantrum, it's called not supporting toxic behavior. If the person who got booted is the second healer, well then that "Speed Run" is over. Because they will have lost both healers from their pigheadedness.

I'm a nice person, but I also don't put up with bullying and griefing. And I refuse to play with people that behave like that. If there is someone that just sits at the entrance to watch the cutscenes and doing nothing, then yeah, vote kick em for not even trying. My first time through I watched ALL the cutscenes, and I was still pretty close by to the group, making an effort to keep up, participated when the cutscene ended. I was there for story, and I got my runs done in 1 shot both times.

When it came to the Ultima fight, someone decided to pull during the cutscene. I continued watching the cutscene regardless, and when the scene ended, the second healer died, and I picked up the slack and we finished the fight. In my case, I watched the cutscenes, but made an effort to contribute. Regardless, when it comes to bad behavior, or griefing, yeah I will complain. It's the beauty of a democracy. If something seems wrong or broken, people can protest and try to make a change for the better.

You like throwing the term dictator around a lot. Tell me, who is the real dictator in these 2 groups:

Group 1 - "Do was I say! Skip the cutscene! I will have the group vote kick you if you don't do as I say! Play how I want you to play or else!"

Group 2 - "I'm here to have fun and enjoy the story. I will try to catch up and participate if you are willing to be patient. If you aren't that is fine as well, I just want to experience for myself, the story and have fun."

Since you don't have the attention span to read a full paragraph, i'll keep it short this time:

Is a player watching a CS Tanking? Healing? Damage dealing? Didn't think so. That is a leach.

What you call "toxic behavior" is merely people who don't put up with selfish behavior.

A "nice person" who calls people bullies (A person who uses strength or power to harm or intimidate those who are weaker.) and grievers (a person who harasses or deliberately provokes other players or members in order to spoil their enjoyment) when they don't agree with him/her. That's funny. Especially considering a CS watcher can easily be called a "griever" to in case you haven't noticed.


I call you a dictator because you fit the definition like a glove: "A person who tells people what to do in an autocratic way or who determines behavior in a particular sphere."

And your two examples? the answer is both. Why? because in both quotes, the person talking is not taking the wants of the entire group into consideration. That person is doing what that person wants and screw the rest of the party. It is this reason why the kick system is based on popular vote. Also, nobody can "make" others vote a certain way. I mean...really?

I fight for others. and whether you choose to admit it or not, you only fight for yourself. Empathy will do you some good. Trust me on this.

Now toss me another one. I have my catcher's mit ready

[Darki]

waiting for cutscenes - 1 player watching, 7 sitting on their thumbs

vs.

not waiting - 1 player watching cutscenes but doesn't get to fight bosses OR 1 player has to wait till later to watch his cutscenes but gets to participate in fights that get facerolled by the ilvl90+ players and 7 players that get to play the game without standing around


One of those options seems more selfish than the other. Maybe that's just me.

However, I agree with you that it's not right to bully others into not watching the cutscenes. And it's definitely not ok to kick them if they're new and watching the cutscenes.

This. This right here.

[Blackweaver]

And your two examples? the answer is both.

Bzzt! Wrong answer! Group 1 wants to control others through threats, insult, and actions. Group 2, is there to enjoy the game. Dictators are about controlling people, make them do what they want. Group 2 is not interested in controlling how others play. They are there to enjoy the game, help where they can, but are willing to contribute to the group. The very fact you think both are dictators, now proves you are not worth my time or energy. Sorry I am skipping past any further posts from you. If this forum had a blacklist fuction, I'd be using it.

It is not selfish to play the game as intended and get the full experience. It is so sad that people are such poor gamers they have no idea how to game.
"But 7 people want to grind and don't care at all about the noob and have no idea how to have fun with noobs ... what about them?"

They're getting tomes. To stand around and wait. Yes, that's how it works.
If they run ahead and kill everything, yes, they're being selfish.

Empathy does not mean "Oh, 7 people want to grind; I guess I will ruin my first time experience" or "Oh, the majority are selfish; I guess I should let them push me around."

Empathy means, "I was new once. I remember what that is like. Let's make sure the noob has fun, and hope they help the next noob have fun."

It's a lot more fun to be a gamer than a grinder.

And I agree with you. People should remember these are story dungeons, the key word is story. Not grind dungeon, story dungeons. Story is told in these dungeons. People should have the freedom to experience the story their first time around. Bottom line: People should stop bullying new people who are wanting to experience the story this game offers. This game isn't world of warcraft, where there is no real story just grind. This game is a story driven game.

If this was a D&D board game, and a couple people begin getting rude towards the new to the game guy and kick him out of the game halfway through, I'd tell them they were rude and I don't play with bullies and get up and leave with the kicked out guy. Games are about having fun. And for many many players, myself included, the games story telling is fun to experience and they should have the freedom to not only queue for the dungeon for their quests, but to experience the story as it happens.