I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[Lemon8or]

Gah, you're missing the forest for the trees. Just...nevermind.

I don't see how I'm missing the forest when you said this:

To clarify, I meant they don't mean anything in telling you that someone is doing good DPS

It does mean something. If a monk is able to keep GL3 all fight, he is doing much better DPS than if he didn't. It takes 9 GCD or Perfect Balance to get back into GL3 mode so the attacks you're padding during then is not doing as much damage as it should. With my gears, a True Strike can do upwards of 1050 damage. Without GL3, that same True Strike would do 826 damage. That's just a single skill. So yeah if I spot a monk losing GL3 when he shouldn't, he's not doing good DPS.

I play a healer too and I prefer seeing it. So...I don't get your point. Also "cripple" is overreacting. The DPS loss is utterly negligible and there's no reason to lose GL3 when doing it either. It's not required to drop GL3 to perform the switch.

It's different for different people. I play healer and I agree with the one you're quoting. Like I said, Fist abilities has a recast timer of 3 seconds so the best you can do with it is to sacrifice 1 GCD ability to keep up GL. Sometimes you don't have that kind of margin. For example, in Titan EX, you're about to hit Snap Punch but Titan jumps so you didn't connect so you have about 5 seconds left on GL3 timer. Now when he lands for Geocrush, you have to hit Snap Punch immediately as soon as he's targetable or you would and will lose GL3 and end up in GL1. Factor in the Fist of Fire change, you either do 5% less damage on that Snap Punch or not even able to get GL1. I'd prefer keeping Fist of Fire compared to the alternatives. Why? Because sometimes you don't have the leisure to wait 1 or 2 seconds. My first turn 8 kill was with 2 seconds left on the enrage timer. If I had chosen to take less damage, it would have been a wipe. I know you haven't gotten to encounters that you need to push your DPS as best as possible so you probably wouldn't know.

[givemeraptors]

It does mean something. If a monk is able to keep GL3 all fight, he is doing much better DPS than if he didn't.

Yes, I know. I was just trying to shorten my response. To clarify, GL3 to me is like a baseline; if your MNK can't keep up their stacks then the DPS question is moot to begin with and how in the world did they get to Turn 8 without being able to maintain that? In any event, you still don't need a parser to see that. A more holistic approach is better for MNKs, but like I've said before, they are the hardest class to gauge from a distance. Less flashy moves, hard to keep track of whether they're hitting all positionals, etc. That could just be me though.

My first turn 8 kill was with 2 seconds left on the enrage timer. If I had chosen to take less damage, it would have been a wipe. I know you haven't gotten to encounters that you need to push your DPS as best as possible so you probably wouldn't know.

I get that you won't always be able to switch fists during a fight. But it is possible to do so without a DPS loss in many cases. If I see a MNK doing so while also keeping GL3 up I will think they are better than a MNK that doesn't switch fists and maintains GL3. Am I expecting it? Not at all. But If I see it, the former gets my commendation and maybe a friend request.

Whether I've gotten to Second Coil is moot. Second Coil isn't the only time you would need to push your DPS to the limit. Maybe a DD died/dc'd during Titan Ex heart phase. Heck, maybe you're the only one left standing at the Demon Wall in Amdapor Keep and it still has 40% health. Second Coil isn't the end all/be all when it comes to amazing DPS. The bar is set higher to begin with, definitely. But extenuating circumstances can push that bar up in non-coil content as well. Just look at the people complaining about the required ilvl for Haukke HM. Those players definitely wish their "undergeared" DPS were generating the best DPS possible.

Which brings us back to parsers because good DPS in this game is valuable. But maximum potential DPS? The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat. Without Echo (sometimes even with) how many full parties, i.e. all eight players, are actually entering Extreme primals or Coil with the minimal ilvl required? How many light/full parties are entering anything at the minimum ilvl? It is possible to beat the fight at those levels, and anything higher is that much more leeway you have.

But even then, this argument isn't about trying to maximize DPS using parsers, it's about pinpointing the weak link in a party using parsers. And as I've stated repeatedly, from my perspective I think it's possible to do so without parsers, and from that standpoint alone I don't think they are necessary.

[Tiggy]

Whether I've gotten to Second Coil is moot. Second Coil isn't the only time you would need to push your DPS to the limit.

Of course there are other moments, but those, as you pointed out, tend to be when errors happen and people are trying to repair a bad situation by pushing hard.

Coil 2 however requires this as a course of action where any mistake turns into a wipe with no possibility of fixing the error, and even in cases of no errors your damage may easily be too low to beat the enrage.

I'm sure you can appreciate how different the situations are.

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat.

T8 would like to have words with you. T8 absolutely requires maximum possible DPS to beat the enrage. If you're not winning because of 100 combined group DPS it can be EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint who could be pushing 20-30 more or even if one person was 70 lower than normal and it was mostly on them to improve.

Please stop assuming all content is the same. Not all content has echo, and players haven't out geared all that content either. There is absolutely legitimately difficult content where this level of min maxing is 100% required. You're insistence that such content doesn't exist will not magically make the second coil go away.

[Lemon8or]

how in the world did they get to Turn 8 without being able to maintain that?

Because RNG and group strategy can have big impact on how often/not often you lose GL3. Turn 8 is pretty much a dummy fight that you should never lose GL3 unless you're dead but turn 6 briar method combined with RNG or turn 7 if you repeatedly get Shriek, again RNG.

I get that you won't always be able to switch fists during a fight. But it is possible to do so without a DPS loss in many cases.

And that's exactly what I was telling you. There are several cases where you can switch stances without a DPS loss. A Snap Punch under Fist of Earth is a DPS loss. Whether it's big or small is another unrelated argument.

And as I've stated repeatedly, from my perspective I think it's possible to do so without parsers, and from that standpoint alone I don't think they are necessary.

And I will just agree that we disagree that it's possible to track what other people are doing when the fights requires a lot of concentration on yourself and the boss. For fights that it doesn't require that much concentration? Well you already overgear them.

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter will ever need the maximum possible DPS to beat.

Second Coil is not a moot point as you have no idea how tight the DPS check can be if you haven't seen it. Imagine a boss with adds estimated roughly double the HP of Twintania, no echo and you have to down it in the same 13 minutes but wait you haven't killed Twin.

[givemeraptors]

Of course there are other moments, but those, as you pointed out, tend to be when errors happen and people are trying to repair a bad situation by pushing hard.

Coil 2 however requires this as a course of action where any mistake turns into a wipe with no possibility of fixing the error, and even in cases of no errors your damage may easily be too low to beat the enrage.

I'm sure you can appreciate how different the situations are.

You're just repeating what I said:

The bar is set higher to begin with, definitely. But extenuating circumstances can push that bar up in non-coil content as well.

The end result is the same: pushing DPS to the limit. My point was that just because I haven't done Second Coil doesn't mean I haven't ever had to push DPS or wipe.

T8 would like to have words with you. T8 absolutely requires maximum possible DPS to beat the enrage. If you're not winning because of 100 combined group DPS it can be EXTREMELY difficult to pinpoint who could be pushing 20-30 more or even if one person was 70 lower than normal and it was mostly on them to improve.

And again:

The way FFXIV is designed means that almost no encounter

But yeah, I know what an exception is thank you. A massive change like the implementation of parsers shouldn't be weighted by one fight though. Especially when it will affect all DoW/DoM content. I can see especially vicious behavior occurring in low-level dungeons where people are:
1) learning
2) don't care about optimal rotations because it's superfluous.

Please stop assuming all content is the same. Not all content has echo, and players haven't out geared all that content either. There is absolutely legitimately difficult content where this level of min maxing is 100% required. You're insistence that such content doesn't exist will not magically make the second coil go away.

Don't even know where you get that I think all content has echo. Are fights tightly tuned? Sure. Are they so tuned that a parser is NEEDED? No. Is it worth introducing parsers for the sole purpose of Coil when it will affect far more than just Coil? No. Do people seem to be clearing Coil fine without an official parser? Yes.

I'm not saying everyone is overgeared, but the way the game is structured means that people will usually be over the ilvl requirements for the fight. I'm not saying there isn't difficult content (though I typically find the difficulty of this game to be overexaggerated but that is a different discussion), but I don't think that content requires min/maxing and neither does Yoshi-P:

"Nova Crystallis: What did you think when the Second Coil of Bahamut was cleared in three weeks?

Yoshida: Amazing. We watch and track the progress the whole time, and we saw that out of the whole world three different groups were up there at the top with everyone else floundering on the first levels. Blue Garter got it first, but the others were right after – it was very close. When designing the Binding Coil, we expected that at the third Turn [Turn 8], players would need at least the Soldiery gear to progress. We designed it with a certain DPS requirement in mind, but when those three groups came in and were over that DPS requirement already, that blew us away as we didn’t expect them to get that far. If you look back and think, they were better than the requirement when they got got there..."

If you're not decked out in full soldiery/high allagan then you're not even meeting the minimum requirement and thus yeah, min/maxing will be required. But that's because you're actively pushing the limits. You're going 110%. That is not required. That is not a good reason to introduce a parser.

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

[Zephyranthes]

It's a matter of wording. Tell them that they're doing bad DPS because you see them having big delays in attacks, bad positioning, etc. Never mention exact DPS count since people will assume that you're using a parser.

It's another story though if you have an IQ of 1000 and can add a player's damage as they come out in the battle log...

[Nicobo]

...When someone does a dungeon and the tank or healer isn't playing their job well, it's perfectly fine to tell them that... ...Doesn't that seem like a terrible double standard though?

IMO above example is irrelevant,
since people determine tank/healer not by parser, so it would be the same standard to determine dps without using parser.

In other words, If there is an official dps meter to judge dps, it will be double standard bcoz no meter for tank/heal ^^;

[ispano]

IMO above example is irrelevant,
since people determine tank/healer not by parser, so it would be the same standard to determine dps without using parser.

In other words, If there is an official dps meter to judge dps, it will be double standard bcoz no meter for tank/heal ^^;

I think it went over your head. It's a double standard because a Tank or Healer failing is EASILY visible. A DPS failing is not, as such they have more of a shield in that regard. So, no, you're wrong. Also parsers record far far more than just DPS. People just see the DPS aspect and start claiming "elitism" and such.

[Nicobo]

I think it went over your head. It's a double standard because a Tank or Healer failing is EASILY visible. A DPS failing is not, as such they have more of a shield in that regard. So, no, you're wrong. Also parsers record far far more than just DPS. People just see the DPS aspect and start claiming "elitism" and such.

I like the idea dps meter, as it would be helpful for ppl to determine dps performance.
But, I don't think above example is good enough to show "double stantards",
bcoz imo it was talking to measure DPS but not tank/heal so maybe it would be another double standard at somebody view^^;

[ispano]

I like the idea dps meter, as it would be helpful for ppl to determine dps performance.
But, I don't think above example is good enough to show "double stantards",
bcoz imo it was talking to measure DPS but not tank/heal so maybe it would be another double standard at somebody view^^;

No, it removes the double standard by putting a DPS' performance out in the open. Because Tanks and Healers already have their performance out in the open.