I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[givemeraptors]

I'm just going to clarify the trend of this thread and how I feel about it but first:

In your zeal to dissect each individual sentence

??????????????????
Where did this happen?
Moving on...

everything else

The game does give feedback to DPS. Did you kill the adds before they wiped the party? Did you kill the boss before enrage? This thread started because someone thought there was a double standard in performance visibility, but there's nothing invisible about mobs/bosses not dying fast enough.

Then it became a matter of, "well how can we tell who is doing the low DPS?" To which I responded: just observe how they play. There are eight people in your party. That's potentially eight pair of eyes to catch sub-par playing. In 4-man content it's even easier to observe other players and give feedback without the assistance of a parser.

Then it became "but you can't observe if someone is min/maxing based on observation alone" To which I said: That may be true, but min/maxing isn't required in any part of this game not even T8. Which Yoshi-P has said himself. The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

Now it's become: "You haven't even gotten to the Second Coil so you don't know what you're talking about." And I'm just gonna go:

...and leave this conversation.*

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.

[Tiggy]

??????????????????
Where did this happen?
Moving on...

Really? http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2204282

To which I said: That may be true, but min/maxing isn't required in any part of this game not even T8. Which Yoshi-P has said himself. The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

I don't care if Yoshi said butteflies fly out of his behind. T8/9 are absolutely that tough. You are flat out wrong since there IS content in the game that is that hard. If his intentions were as you said then he is most definitely NOT making that kind of game when it comes to end game content. Besides he has also said on numerous occasions that there is tough content in the game designed for those types of players. He was even saying this before 2.0 launched in reference to the first coil. So you need to find some way to come to terms with the fact that this is a casual game that most definitely has some non-casual end game components.

Also, the quote you so nicely paraphrased was not given and credence to the idea that parser were unnecessary at all. The actual quote was this.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/162520

Exceeding our expectations by leaps and bounds, we were astounded to find the final turn of the Second Coil of Bahamut has been cleared by an intrepid group of players hailing from the Order of the Blue Garter! Congratulations─your skill and commitment is an inspiration to adventurers everywhere. We look forward to seeing more players rise to the challenge of the Second Coil and triumph against the greatest dangers in the realm.

The people who cleared it were going above and beyond what he believed was possible

No, He commended them and their commitment and said they were an inspiration to others. They did not say it was above and beyond what they believed was possible. At all.

and what the fight was tuned for and thus is an unrealistic standard to hold to everyone else to and a poor defense for putting parsers in the game when they are currently unneeded.

This part was entirely made up by you.

He did NOT say for even a second that there was or was not any unrealistic standard and it was in no way related to parsers at all. You're doing some serious mental gymnastics to stretch his quote to mean things it literally did not even talk about.

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.

I even said earlier that I don't think a parser was the right solution to this. It's ok though. Put it in small text like it won't be noticed or something and keep acting like I didn't already agree on that point.

It comes down to this. You think nothing at all should be done in any way shape or form to assist players in improving their skills. You think the only solution is to "watch them" while you're in the middle of a raid. I'm glad you think your so elite that you can do your own rotations and focus on other people at the same time, but not everyone is and therefore that's a terrible solution or the lack of any solution at all. Something needs to be done. In the current environment the difficult battles promote hostility between players. I simply wish the game to feature some manner in which those players could practice before coming into raid scenarios. This would improve player skill and confidence and help to reduce the vitriolic encounters this exact thread was created to discuss. If you can't see the value in that then please by all means continue living your life with so much skill you can watch and deal with everyone else during a fight. The rest of us who have difficulty multitasking would like something better to train on. You need to try and understand these people better because right now you're the elitist saying "god it's easy just watch their rotations during battle" like it's an easy thing to do. It's not.

[NoctisUmbra]

You need to try and understand these people better because right now you're the elitist saying "god it's easy just watch their rotations during battle" like it's an easy thing to do. It's not.

To be honest, if I was still playing the game at the pre-Twintania level with echo and a whole new tier of being over-geared, I might have also thought it to be an easy thing to do.

[Lemon8or]

just observe how they play

The things you mentioned is barely the tips of the iceberg. You can try and watch all you want but if that's really all you're watching for as indicator of good DPS, you have a lot to learn about each and every single job.

not even T8.

And I'd just ask you how do you know this when you haven't even beaten T5, let alone T8? How do you know everyone who beats it is not min/maxing? As Tiggy pointed out, you're imagining things Yoshi is not saying at all.

The funny thing about this was that the dev team did not expect any group to have enough DPS for at least several weeks after the first T8 kill. Now granted, part of this is due to finding a way to use one tank, but just that simple fact means people had to min/max to clear it. And even if they couldn't use one tank, they would have to min/max even more to beat enrage.

And where did they say they didn't expect any group to have enough DPS? They only mentioned intrepid groups that push to turn 9. And I agreed with you that people had to min/max to clear turn 8, please read the person I'm quoting's post.

That may be true, but min/maxing isn't required in any part of this game not even T8.

[ispano]

And I'd just ask you how do you know this when you haven't even beaten T5, let alone T8? How do you know everyone who beats it is not min/maxing? As Tiggy pointed out, you're imagining things Yoshi is not saying at all.

The funny thing about this was that the dev team did not expect any group to have enough DPS for at least several weeks after the first T8 kill. Now granted, part of this is due to finding a way to use one tank, but just that simple fact means people had to min/max to clear it. And even if they couldn't use one tank, they would have to min/max even more to beat enrage.

[ispano]

And where did they say they didn't expect any group to have enough DPS? They only mentioned intrepid groups that push to turn 9. And I agreed with you that people had to min/max to clear turn 8, please read the person I'm quoting's post.

I was trying to enforce what you said. I'm on your side of the fence for this argument. Basically the quote about them being surprised people got past T8 so quickly, when it was designed to take more gearing up.

[Dwill]

You say I'm ignoring content? I think you have tunnel vision. Coil is not all people do. Min/maxing is your preference. It is not a requirement. A parser would have consequences that should be considered from all aspects, not just what the raiding crowd desires because it will affect more than just Coil.

What evidence do you possess that gives your argument credibility ? On what basis can you officially say that introducing a parser will have such dire consequences ?

Just so you know, before you answer, generalization and anecdotal evidence are not valid arguments for obvious reasons.

Where's your answer on that ? I'm afraid I might be waiting a long time for an answer, seeing as you still have zero valid arguments thus far.

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.

And you can keep hitching a free ride for under performing without anyone calling you on it.

[Tharian]

*Parsers won't be implemented now or in the near-future and that's pretty much all I need to be satisfied.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Square-Enix allegedly in the finishing stages of implementing the Add-On Feature for this game that will allow people to write their own add-ons for the game?

If true then Parsers would at that time arguably become Legal in the form of an add-on that utilizes Square-Enix's Add-On features. So saying that it won't be implemented in the near future kind of depends on how near in the future the Add-On feature will be implemented, doesn't it?

Very well you got me there. But it brings me back to my original point then. Prove that im not just looking at the combat log and dot ticks and saying that your dps is 200=)

And how would you be looking at my (I'm a Summoner) DoT ticks when your Combat Log (much less mine) doesn't record them in the first place. It's impossible to look at something that doesn't exist.

[ispano]

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't Square-Enix allegedly in the finishing stages of implementing the Add-On Feature for this game that will allow people to write their own add-ons for the game?

If true then Parsers would at that time arguably become Legal in the form of an add-on that utilizes Square-Enix's Add-On features. So saying that it won't be implemented in the near future kind of depends on how near in the future the Add-On feature will be implemented, doesn't it?

Except they've always hinted that the add-ons would be UI modifications. They've not stated anything beyond that.

And how would you be looking at my (I'm a Summoner) DoT ticks when your Combat Log (much less mine) doesn't record them in the first place. It's impossible to look at something that doesn't exist.

You can see another player's on screen damage amounts. Not easy, especially with 8 man parties, but it's there.