I just wanted to point out a double standard...

[AmnesiaHaze]

i feel like people have too high expectations on others in this game , it can be partially caused by the unforgiving game mechanics i guess, i noticed the more unforgiving mechanics in that particular instance , the more hostility (ct for example ) , anyways my point is people should be more patient with others and not taking a good team as something granted , instead of insulting try helping less experienced people and challenge themselves to complete it even under harder conditions

[MeiUshu]

ahh but it does when it relates to me, I cant speak for others do I? I dont generalize either, based on my experience and knowledge, 100 % of all those that used parsers where I was concerned were bad, uneducated and insulting, there was no exception to this. If you re-read what I said, I did say this much that I have YET to meet nice people or even decent people when it comes to the use of parsers. So in my experience, knowledge and the like, there are no good people to this, until I meet one and it doesnt exist yet. How can you say is generalizing is beyond me or maybe I wasnt clear happens, also who are you to tell me I have to say NOT ALl are bad, when I only met bad people ? see my point

Mei

[Dwill]

ahh but it does when it relates to me, I cant speak for others do I? I dont generalize either, based on my experience and knowledge, 100 % of all those that used parsers where I was concerned were bad, uneducated and insulting, there was no exception to this. If you re-read what I said, I did say this much that I have YET to meet nice people or even decent people when it comes to the use of parsers.

Therefore my argument stands...

Mei

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dicti...generalization
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdotal

Read these and then tell me you're not making sweeping generalization totally based of on your own anecdotal evidence. Your arguments holds no weight whatsoever in this discussion.

[Tiggy]

ahh but it does when it relates to me, I cant speak for others do I? I dont generalize either, based on my experience and knowledge, 100 % of all those that used parsers where I was concerned were bad, uneducated and insulting, there was no exception to this. If you re-read what I said, I did say this much that I have YET to meet nice people or even decent people when it comes to the use of parsers. So in my experience, knowledge and the like, there are no good people to this, until I meet one and it doesnt exist yet. How can you say is generalizing is beyond me or maybe I wasnt clear happens, also who are you to tell me I have to say NOT ALl are bad, when I only met bad people ? see my point

Mei

How about all those people using parsers that did great damage but you never knew they did? I guarantee you meet them, but because they aren't terrible people you never knew. Humans have a tendency to only notice and remember bad things.

The simple fact is you don't have statistics for every player you encounter. You don't know who has a parser and who doesn't. You only know that people who start trying to correct other players most likely do. You have ZERO information on how many people you've encountered that used a parser right there in your party without ever causing a single problem. This is why anecdotes are useless information.

[NoctisUmbra]

If a tank plays badly, he loses hate or is unable to properly mitigate a specific phase/skill and dies due to taking far too much damage.

If a healer plays badly, people in the party die to unavoidable damage (typically the tank) even when it is of a reasonable amount.

When the party's DPS is low, it is noticed by the fights taking longer. However, the typical party double the DPS players in it. Simply pointing out that DPS isn't where it needs to be often leads to each dps player saying they are doing fine, essentially implying it is somebody else. Politics.

I've had it happen when I tanked and wiped repeatedly due to adds not dying fast enough or boss fight taking way too long, and when I asked the DPS about it (in the nicest way possible, remaining fully positive and constructive even as my patience wore incredibly thin) they would say they were doing fine and even say exactly what they should be doing as what they were doing. As if they memorized it, but couldn't execute and refused to admit it.

I've also had it happen when I played as a DPS among many, though to a lesser degree as I would carry more than my end of the weight by performing damn near optimally. I'm a DPS main, and my chief pleasure in playing XIV is being able to put out maximum levels of DPS on each job. Even then, bosses would take considerably longer to kill than what would be expected based on the gear level of the DPS. When brought up, more deflection.

Ultimately, parsers cut right through that crap. Is somebody under-performing? It says so right there in the data. The problem comes from how people chose to make use of this information they now have access to - and that's the reason SE is careful/conservative when it comes to this. I'm of the opinion that more transparency in party performance is a good thing, and people need to learn to make constructive use of the info. Saves a lot of time that is otherwise wasted playing the blame game.

[NoctisUmbra]

The irony of it all is, people still use parsers. They can't be tracked. The only way to be punished is if you use them and speak out in game with numbers and harass someone with it.

If a player has far lower DPS than they should, they are doing something wrong. If they are doing something (probably many things) wrong, these things can be noticed by observing said player.

There are, however, multiple DPS players aside from the fact that any fight worth a damn requires a high level of concentration on oneself and the enemy/encounter mechanics. Furthermore paying attention to each and every DPS player's actions is unreasonable, and if not impossible, will at least reduce your performance.

That said, if somebody in the party is secretly using a parser, and isn't abrasive about it in party - doesn't even share any of his insight related to the parser, they will immediately see any patterns of specific DPS players underperforming. Knowing who to look out for, they can then observe that single player, and undoubtedly notice their mistakes and then proceed to point this out to them. If they're particularly nice, they will do it constructively. No mention of parsers or numbers. No offense. Mission accomplished(?). However, it was a parser in the first place that allowed for this insight.

Have you or someone you know been called out on underperforming without the mention of numbers? There's a good chance the person did indeed have a parser, but was careful in how they used that information.

[Dwill]

Have you or someone you know been called out on underperforming without the mention of numbers? There's a good chance the person did indeed have a parser, but was careful in how they used that information.

Exactly. And the people who said that the community would harass the one with low DPS with a parser already would be harassing people. Instead of saying: "Your dps is x, you should be doing y", it's going to be: "Your DPS is too low!!". The latter which I have yet to see.

People who have no knowledge about parser except for the fact that it can track your DPS have got to get over their baseless fear.

[NoctisUmbra]

It's not hard to tell when somebody in your party is parsing, but is all hush hush about it either. You just need to know what to look for.

Very often at the end of soldiery runs or any kind of 4 man dungeon I'll receive much more commendations than I would expect as a dps (it typically goes to the tank that performs well or the healer) or I'll have someone compliment me in some implicit way, without any quantitative data. Like an affirmative nod that is grounded in evidence, but cannot be spoken publicly.

People always talk about players who parse being abusive or mean. That's because those are the only times they know a person is parsing. The players who parse regularly, and say nothing that explicitly reveals this will go completely unnoticed. Players who provide valuable constructive advice/criticism without mentioning specific numbers, or who are able to quickly find the source of the party's problem will often be celebrated for doing so seemingly without parsing, even though they likely were.

People see what they want to see. Players who are anti-parsers are typically players who know, in the back of their mind at least, that they do not perform as well as they are required by the content they wish to participate in and are afraid of being called out.

EDIT:

I should further add that in the case of lower level dungeons - where players are leveling up and learning - the process is sorely lacking in valuable DPS walls. The dungeons are far too easy. The class quests utterly useless. Teaching a player who is leveling up a DPS class/job how to properly play that class/job should be the focus of the class/job quests. Without hitting a certain mark, they should be unable to progress. The mark doesn't have to be set very high - something that can easily be reached with the right rotation but is rather difficult without.

[darkstarpoet1]

it's all because these little children get upset when it's pointed out they aren't helping the group. they are actually hurting it. yoshi is more worried about the feelings of that one child than he is of the feelings of the other 7 people in the raid that are failing due to that poor dps.

[Gardes]

The 'just look at what people are doing' argument is stupid. It's slower and either you start looking for who the weak links are after multiple failures on DPS checks or you have to constantly scrutinize everybody all the time.

Either cases still has you trying to find the weak links anyway, exactly just what parser using players are already doing.