Lower the TP cost on Piercing Talon

[Phyllo]

Again this is not a problem of balance, the classes are already well balanced as they are, some sure are a bit "stronger" but overall none of them is useless.

No this is a problem of game design, when you make a skill become useless after a certain moment, it usually means that something will replace it, either with similar but not exactly the same effects or with the same effects but boosted, for example stone and stone II, however stone is still useful as it is since it slow your opponent in case of Hate and allows you to keep dealing damage and saving mp.

The problem with feint is that there is that the skill itself becomes useless not because it is replaced by another but because it's effects are nullified by the opponent, thus creating this skill becomes in end game a waste of time and something that unbalances the class when compared to the others.

I may have not played all the classes but I didn't saw any other class nor heard of any other class that have a skill that truly becomes useless in the end, and by useless I mean that using it is a waste of time and tp/mp

[Alistaire]

Again this is not a problem of balance...

I may have not played all the classes but I didn't saw any other class nor heard of any other class that have a skill that truly becomes useless in the end, and by useless I mean that using it is a waste of time and tp/mp

It is a problem of balance, because when all is said and done the primary goal/question has to be "do the hard fights remain hard for the reasons they're meant to be hard?"

If you're not proposing a buff there's no point saying what you're saying at all.

If you are proposing a buff, it's either to what enemies it works on, or its general potency.

Its general potency is fine, especially when it's a key skill in dealing with various low level content well before your level would normally permit you to tackle it.

Working on bosses it would become a crutch; slow is very very potent. SE realised that in FFXI. There's a reason bards subbed Black Mage to things like Khimera, for the elemental seal slow. (for the non-ffxi inclined, Bards set a completely useless subjob solely for the purpose of making their slow stick, and that would be very...instrumental in winning)

As far as other classes not having useless abilities in the end, oh my... One-ilm punch, skull sunder/butcher's block (not 100% useless but very rarely room in a good rotation), freeze, tri-disaster, ifrit-egi, sleep/repose, even something like touch of death becomes a liability in endgame fights due to tp cost. And feint retains more usefulness than any skill in my list.

Might as well say let's buff sleep so it works on bosses sometimes, then we'll end up where ffxi was, sleeping fafnir/tiamat to totally trivialise the fight. Tiamat especially became utterly boring with blms sleeping on each touchdown, and the only thing that made that fight ever a challenge was that it took a while for people to figure out that strat.

[Lemon8or]

One-ilm punch, skull sunder/butcher's block (not 100% useless but very rarely room in a good rotation), freeze, tri-disaster, ifrit-egi, sleep/repose, even something like touch of death becomes a liability in endgame fights due to tp cost. And feint retains more usefulness than any skill in my list.

Yes. What? Yes. Yes. Kinda, some people like it. Yes. What? Haymaker is another useless one.

[Altena]

skull sunder/butcher's block (not 100% useless but very rarely room in a good rotation),

HUH?! o.o

Errrrrrrrm, if you don't use Skull/Butcher's I have absolutely no idea how you intend to keep hate.
In fact all of WAR's weapon skills are extremely useful.
Storms Eye for slashing resistance, Storm's Path for damage mitigation, Maim for damage buff, Fracture is WAR's highest potency single hit skill.

Skull/Butcher's is pretty much the core combo in order to keep hate... I have absolutely no idea what you're tanking without them.

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The adjustment isn't a huge "buff".. It is simply balancing a skill to make it usable with a slight TP reduction. Not asking for a damage buff on it - or an increase in range, or anything that ridiculous - simply reducing the TP to a usable level. As I mentioned in one of the first posts, this thread isn't really about other skills (yes there are indeed quite a lot of skills that need to be looked at), however many of those skills are a bit more complex then simply adjusting the TP cost of one.

For example, although it may be easy to simply "make feint useful by letting it land on bosses", the balancing that is actually involved with that is the more challenging part.

Hence why I tried to stick primarily to Talon because it is an extremely simple adjustment and won't really make DRG unbalanced or "overpowered".
Yes it is already a powerful melee (MNK still trumps it in a lot of situations) however adjusting Talon really isn't a huge "buff" to DRG, it's more of a buff to the way the job plays.

Having the ability to use a weak ranged attack during disconnects just increases the playstyle/flavour of the job really. A highly mobile lancer that is able to use throwing spears and jump on mobs.. I mean we are Dragon slayers for crying out loud :/

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I'll address your impression that melee is forced to no being able to stand next to the mob and bash it all the time. The definition between a good melee player and an average melee player is his ability to stick on to the boss as much as possible, minimizing down-time.

That's the definition of any DPS. Not just melee. For BLM as an example - the definition of a "good BLM" is to minimize movement in general, and use Manipulation whenever it's possible.

No offence both of u, Altena and Altaeciana have valid points but im not too sure whether you understand what makes a good melee dps and what makes a efficient raid.

No offence to you either, however you don't know me, nor do I know you, or Altaeciana in that respect. The way that this sentence comes off is actually quite invective and presumptuous.

Let's just use your example of Turn 6. Common mistake of average melee dpsers, not hitting the boss when you don't get vined or floral trapped and tunneling in on getting into the "right position". That's down-time no matter what and does reducing TP of PT help here for inactivity? Answer is no.

This isn't an actual disconnect, this is a player not paying attention.

Yes getting vines attached to u is annoying. Do you and your raid break the vines fast enough so that you can get back on the boss and minimize downtime and most importantly take minimal damage such that your healer doesn't need to top you up? Does reducing TP of PT here help? Answer still no cause of the instability of firing PT while on the move, making you move back towards the boss and possibly making you walk back into the danger zone while lengthening the time period to break the chains thus taking more damage.

As a melee, you often do not have to run very far - a few steps toward the side of the boss and the vines will generally break (depending who you are tethered to). However in cases where you do, PT is perfectly viable here. If you cannot throw Talon and continue running backward - then you haven't spent enough time on BRD. It is very easy throw Talon while running in the opposite direction if you have good control of your character. Jumping is another ideal way to do this (jump and throw talon, which keeps your character moving away from the boss, then hold right mouse button and continue running away/strafing.)

Yes getting floral trapped is annoying, it purposefully makes you stay away from rafflesia. Throwing PTs while waiting for it to go off is cool, you get say 3 to 4 PTs off waiting for the sign to be off you. Here the difference between an average melee and a good melee is that an average melee tries to slowly walk back to rafflesia after the trap sign goes off and a good melee jumps back (shoulder charge low cd, drg 3 jumps to bring u to the boss) after rafflesia does devour. Is the TP cost of 3 to 4 PTs punishing? No because of the other boss mechanic called Blighted Bouquet. It's essentially a 120-180 TP top up thanks to making your character inactive for 2 to 3 ticks. So does reducing TP cost of PT here help? Negligible impact, i rather you increase the damage of PT. DRG's fall off DPS is already disgusting enough compared to any class in the game.

Trap isn't really the issue here depending on your group, many use the line of site / briar-less strategy. You will be stunned for a couple of seconds however there is very little movement (and you are actually always on the boss). The major example in T6 was vines. As I already mentioned previously however - DRG, having 3x gap closers (2 on fairly long CD's) doesn't *always* have a gap closer up if the mechanics of a busy fight such as T6 or T7, are hating on you.

In addition to this, DRG's gap closers fill up the entire portion of the GCD (plus some), so throwing a Talon before using a gap closer is an extra attack that you would be unable to get in otherwise - So Talon>Closer>Impulse/heavy/etc and you are one extra attack better off.

As for Blighted, yes it does help with TP, however 3-4 Talons (at 130TP each) is a huge 360TP cost (minimum). Sorry to say but yes, that is definitely going to cause TP issues.

Once again, the decrease in TP cost is not really to buff DRG's DPS because simply reducing the TP cost wouldn't increase it to any notable amount. You might be able to get a few extra Talons at (120 potency) over an entire fight, that you wouldn't have done otherwise - which will be an increase of 300-500 potency over the course of the entire fight - that is pretty much insignificant.

Any good DRG definitely will not run out of TP in any of the fights, with the SOLE exception of Turn 8. You will run out of TP if you are missing your initiation skills (Impulse Drive, Heavy Thrust) because of bad positioning. They made it exceptionally punishing to miss such skills by having these skills cost 10 more TP than ur battle time TP regen. Using Phble, Disembowel and the above 2 skills at the wrong rotations also have the same impact.

If you throw in 130 TP talons in there - yes a DRG most certainly will run out (hence the point of this thread). In its current state - no, DRG doesn't get to the point where they are waiting for TP ticks, as long as they aren't missing combos and don't use one of their skills (point of this post once more).

Rather than crying foul at the TP cost of PT, which im totally dumbfounded for why people even bothered to argue this, why don't spend more time propositioning higher potency for three-Thrust combo because our DPS drop off after the first 30 seconds of the fight till the 3rd minute of the fight is so bad that we will never ever catch up with monk's DPS in long fights ever, given the same gear set and player proficiency.

Because it doesn't really need it? We already got our damage buff, and it pretty much made it reasonably balanced. Yes MNK is still more effective in every turn of the 2nd coil, if played correctly. However for the most part - DRG's damage is on par (or at least close enough to).

What you mentioned is "working as intended" though.. MNK is sustained damage over a long period, and DRG's damage is primarily spike. Straight zergs where DPS can stay glued to the mob (like T8), MNK will most certainly be top DPS. Fights that involve a heavy amount of disconnects (Let's say, many of the Primal fights with long animations or jumps/dashes) where GL will fall off are a different story.

I don't care for a DRG damage buff. I don't really think it needs it. It did (and it got it) and while it may still be under what it could be - it is pretty much fine for now in comparison to other classes.. If you were to go down that route, I believe that MNK should actually be taken down a notch (Incoming flame from main MNKs). SMN is in that category as well. Although I consider myself a main DRG, I don't really care if their damage is considered "lower" then a certain class, as it just makes me work harder to pull my weight..

This thread isn't about a huge damage buff for DRG, get that out of your head. It is about making a skill that is in our quiver, something that can be used without unbalancing any classes, add a little flavour/playstyle, and reduce the downtime during disconnects.

[Spartan117]

Some yes and some no again. But I'm not going to spend more time arguing for PT's case cause to me that small little decrease in TP cost or increase in damage would have immaterial impact on dps anyway (it's not going to cover a near 15% dps difference between monk and dragoon).

If you cannot throw Talon and continue running backward - then you haven't spent enough time on BRD. It is very easy throw Talon while running in the opposite direction if you have good control of your character. Jumping is another ideal way to do this (jump and throw talon, which keeps your character moving away from the boss, then hold right mouse button and continue running away/strafing.)

Not everyone knows this, and i do see people screwing up chains causing deaths. And again nothing to argue about anyway. I was just presenting possible uses of PT as fillers where you are forced not to be in melee range.

Trap isn't really the issue here depending on your group, many use the line of site / briar-less strategy. You will be stunned for a couple of seconds however there is very little movement (and you are actually always on the boss). The major example in T6 was vines. As I already mentioned previously however - DRG, having 3x gap closers (2 on fairly long CD's) doesn't *always* have a gap closer up if the mechanics of a busy fight such as T6 or T7, are hating on you.

In addition to this, DRG's gap closers fill up the entire portion of the GCD (plus some), so throwing a Talon before using a gap closer is an extra attack that you would be unable to get in otherwise - So Talon>Closer>Impulse/heavy/etc and you are one extra attack better off.

Same again, proposed a possible use of PT as filler. And for specific fights like T6, i very much prefer to remove gap closers from my rotations mainly to secure the advantages of moving out of blight fast and thus less burden on the healers (same like bards and paladins removing silence from their rotation to make sure the damn team doesn't wipe). It's a more teamplay mentality which might not suit your playstyle but that is me. We can agree to disagree on that.

And in an ideal proper T6, there's supposed to be 2 floral or if possible 1 in phase 1, plus another 2 in phase 2. 90s on Spineshatter covers 1st and 4th floral if RNG really shat on you (1/6 chance to the power of 4)

As for Blighted, yes it does help with TP, however 3-4 Talons (at 130TP each) is a huge 360TP cost (minimum). Sorry to say but yes, that is definitely going to cause TP issues.

You're forgeting the natural TP regen of 60 every GCD + -. Total cost should be -180 TP for 3 PT. Effectively each invigorate gives you +500 and each HT, ID, TT makes you -10, and PB on -20. In a 7 min long fight as long as you remember to invigorate, PT is not an issue. Blighted effectively gives you a +60-120 TP cause of skipping 1 - 2GCD if you're maximizing DPS during the cast time.

Once again, the decrease in TP cost is not really to buff DRG's DPS because simply reducing the TP cost wouldn't increase it to any notable amount. You might be able to get a few extra Talons at (120 potency) over an entire fight, that you wouldn't have done otherwise - which will be an increase of 300-500 potency over the course of the entire fight - that is pretty much insignificant.

My point essentially. It's not going to have a major impact over it so why raise a shit storm here between the both of you previously and now betwen the both of us. I did mention both of you have your valid points, but i question the use of time and effort to keep countering each other. Shrugs.

If you throw in 130 TP talons in there - yes a DRG most certainly will run out (hence the point of this thread). In its current state - no, DRG doesn't get to the point where they are waiting for TP ticks, as long as they aren't missing combos and don't use one of their skills (point of this post once more).

First;y, we're not amazons And secondly... no you haven't done T8 without Army's Paeon cause you have 2 magic dps with 2 bards alternating Foe Requiem and Mage's Ballad. Case by case basis definitely. Try it on a training dummy, you need about 8-9 minutes before you totally run out of TP without any support much less including PT, which we won't have a chance to use it in T8 anyway, unless you're on mines duty.

BTW i'm also on homing missile duty and I still run out of TP nonetheless.

Because it doesn't really need it? We already got our damage buff, and it pretty much made it reasonably balanced. Yes MNK is still more effective in every turn of the 2nd coil, if played correctly. However for the most part - DRG's damage is on par (or at least close enough to).

What you mentioned is "working as intended" though.. MNK is sustained damage over a long period, and DRG's damage is primarily spike. Straight zergs where DPS can stay glued to the mob (like T8), MNK will most certainly be top DPS. Fights that involve a heavy amount of disconnects (Let's say, many of the Primal fights with long animations or jumps/dashes) where GL will fall off are a different story.

I don't care for a DRG damage buff. I don't really think it needs it. It did (and it got it) and while it may still be under what it could be - it is pretty much fine for now in comparison to other classes.. If you were to go down that route, I believe that MNK should actually be taken down a notch (Incoming flame from main MNKs). SMN is in that category as well. Although I consider myself a main DRG, I don't really care if their damage is considered "lower" then a certain class, as it just makes me work harder to pull my weight..

This thread isn't about a huge damage buff for DRG, get that out of your head. It is about making a skill that is in our quiver, something that can be used without unbalancing any classes, add a little flavour/playstyle, and reduce the downtime during disconnects.

Don't get me wrong, the last damage buff cum animation buff was to stop people from throwing away DRG totally, and I appreciate that. That said the current state is still no where near a MNK's damage over time.

I agree with you that MNK is sustained damage over time and DRG is spike damage play, but the maths shows it all. A DRG's dmg will outspike MNK's damage in the first 20 seconds of the fight, falls on par with MNK's damage by 40 seconds, drops way below till 80 seconds later when you're BFB is up, and you pull back to slightly under-par of MNK with your spike damage and continue dropping and repeat till end of the fight. Two ways I can think off to address this in the current preferred rotation is to increase Full Thrust potency or Chaos Thrust potency over time, both meaning a higher spike damage initial, a slower drop off rate of dps.

An ideal situation would be a DRG being able to keep up with MNK by rising above MNK's damage for the first 40 seconds, drop to par at 40s and below MNK's total damage up till 80s where the next spike takes it above MNK again and repeat. We're way off the mark currently.

I'm still a DRG player at heart, my guild mates can vouch for me on that. But sometimes when the DPS is just say 1% short of phasing the third's heaven's fall in T9 given your best efforts, you start to question, would a MNK have done it better.

[Alistaire]

HUH?! o.o

Errrrrrrrm, if you don't use Skull/Butcher's I have absolutely no idea how you intend to keep hate.

@ 50 you don't use it at all; you do the Storm's Eye and/or Storm's Path combos. Same hate generation, better side benefits.

Yes. What? Yes. Yes. Kinda, some people like it. Yes. What? Haymaker is another useless one.

Haymaker is good for BRD as it's much higher potency and lower tp than their normal moves when you happen to get an evade proc.

[Phyllo]

I see so there are quite a lot... however I never talked about buffing the skill, its just that the slow resistance becomes so high that the skill becomes useless( oh and by the way, it is far from being a key skill, you can easily go all the way to 50 without using it.)

now I dont know much about the other but I sure hope they still have somewhat of an utility in end game otherwise it means the devs really have issues with managing their content :/

[Itseotle]

I've read this entire thread so far OP, and I do agree it needs a very slight TP cost adjustment, but in just my own opinion, I think the damage should be changed from flat damage to a dot to deter people from spamming it. Talon is nice as a filler when you have to run out, but I don't often find myself using it, and when I do its never really more than 1 talon. But on topic, I agree lowering TP cost from 130 to, say, 90, is justified, especially when you consider Talon is the weakest attack we have as DRGs with its potency of 120.

[snowybell]

the only time i used it is really when in T7, melusine uses the AoE, and usually at the start one rotation would end just nice (with BfB FT+LS), i would run out and throw a talon in you know, just for fun.