WHM vs. SCH -- What is the basic difference.

[Okashii]

I was just saying SCH can be more liberal with our SS use. Cause of personal experience i guess i feel it should be the SCH responsibility since i dont see WHM doing it.

Again, why would you be using stoneskin instead of adlo unless maybe you just wanted to adlo->swift+stoneskin for some extra mitigation perhaps? Adlo has a chance at crit+double shield while stoneskin is percentage of max hp. Yeah, the whm shouldnt be using stoneskin too much anyways, just on some occasions. But for a sch it's just better to use adlo. and in that situation you mentioned, if you are getting stoneskin up on both of those tanks I hope you are also getting adlo on them. and in that case Im pretty sure some of that would have fallen off. It just seems a bit senseless.

and since stoneskin scales on the max hp of whoever it is cast on, there really arent a whole lot of situations where you want to spend time in battle applying stoneskin to healers and dd's. if you have that much time, DPS. Better to use succor and DPS than spend forever getting stoneskin up, usually. Or if you feel you must, just use adlo. On lower HP classes, since adlo doesnt scale on max hp, it should be worth quite a bit more, especially a crit. These arent real numbers but a 9k hp tank adlo'd for a 800 shield would be stoneskinned for 900 but a caster with 5k hp with a 800 adlo shield would have only been stoneskinned for 500. And even in the tank example if stoneskin were worth more in ehp, why use it when the difference is going to be minimal, the cast time longer, and no chance to crit for a double shield?

[DarkLordCthulhu]

Again, why would you be using stoneskin instead of adlo unless maybe you just wanted to adlo->swift+stoneskin for some extra mitigation perhaps?

Yes this right here. During that part of levi i ss myself, swiftcast ss my fellow healer, then adlo myself, and then either adlo fellow healer or go back to the tank. Maybe i just get over zealous when it comes to mitigating damage. Its just so satisfying knowing that an attack that should hit u for 1k+ is doing 0 damage =P and still leaving behind part of the adlo/ss shield

[DreamWeaver]

@peaches
Thank you for your clear explanation .

@DarkLordCthulhu
As a WHM, combat Stone Skin is used sparingly only, such as for Megaflare, T7 in between 2nd phase add spawns, Ravensbeak, 5x Bahamut Claw, Death Sentence, Titan Ex 3 stack Mountain Buster etc, AKA attacks that has a chance of outright killing your tank/raid team.
Other than that, any other mitigation by use of Stone Skin is MP inefficient, why SS when I can heal the tank back up to full easily? SS costs 266 MP, same as a Cure II, double of Cure I, sure it makes you feel like a badass when you see the mountain buster barely nudge the tank's HP bar, but I can also feel like a badass when the tank's HP drop to 60~70%, then go back up immediately within 0.5 second because I timed my heal nicely .

[Nicobo]

SCH rocks single target damage and healing. WHM rocks AoE damage and healing.
...

TBH this statement only valid between experienced players.
Many times in PUG when the MT died, the SCH said "i dont have big heal spell, not my fault (looking at the WHM)" ^^;

[peaches]

TBH this statement only valid between experienced players.
Many times in PUG when the MT died, the SCH said "i dont have big heal spell, not my fault (looking at the WHM)" ^^;

That is actually quite true. We don't have a massive heal like Cure 2 with Divine Seal. Our Physick + Embrace does equal a Cure 2, but sometimes Eos decides to heal somebody else, even if you're manually spamming it on the tank. Where Scholars excel is keeping the tank at high health with consistent heals over a long period of time. We can spam Physick+Embrace, or Adlo to prevent damage then heal him up. If we're lucky and nothing goes wrong, the tank shouldn't spike down to 1/5th HP. We do have Lustrate, but if your Aether is blown and its still on cooldown, you're kinda screwed.

In general I'd say it's the WHMs job to keep regen up, Stoneskin before big hits, keep the party healed up with Medica 2, cure the party after massive raid wide damage like Titan's jumps or what ever, and help out on the tanks when they spike to very low health. Sounds like a lot, but Scholars are doing it all as well but with different abilities.

[Okashii]

RIght, but I do feel like the fights often are designed specifically with a whm/sch pairing in mind. plenty of raid-wide damage and tank killing moves but with enough time in-between that with proper lustrate management means sch usually can have those big heals handy. It's all about knowing the fight/ the pace. And not being afraid to blow a Lustrate when it's time but knowing when it ISN'T time as well. SCH really do excel at tank healing by keeping them up and shielded and lustrating when they get too far down.

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A bad sch is made by:
improper fairy management
improper aetherflow management
little or inconsistent use of adlo
spamming adlo til oom instead of weaving in physics and lustrates
improper use of other cd's

A bad whm is made by:
cure2/cure3 spammers - not using enough cure1 for freecure procs
inconsistent or nonexistent regens
poor timing for heals (many times you need to precast in prep for incoming damage)
poor use of cd's
overall terrible mp management

SCHs main tank healing is from adlo/physic weaving + properly managed fairy
WHM main tank healing is from regen + cure1 + freecure procs

SCHs main raid healing comes from preventative succor/ top-off succor with a possible sacred soil if not needed for a lustrate, but timing is even more important for that move. With Eos, they can use her aoe regen as well, but most SCH will be using Selene
WHM main raid healing comes from medica 1/ medica 2 depending on the situation. Under some conditions, a cure3 is great as well but shouldn't be the go-to raid heal due to its cost and radius. (a med1/2 is much better in many cases if people are spread out a little more and are more likely to also hit the tank where cure3 might not)

SCH have lustrate for healing up from low hp and its great for immediate relief after heavy hitting moves, plus adlo is great for preventing some damage from heavy hits anyways, and it's part of their main healing "rotation"
WHM have their potency cd/ spell speed cd and/or regen+cure2 for low hp tanks, and benediction which can usually only be used 1-2 times in a fight. For certain moves, stoneskin is important before a hit

SCHs manage hate automatically since they split potency with their fairy. Additionally, the shield portion of adlo I believe doesn't generate hate or very little.
WHMs manage hate through paced healing and SoS.

SCHs manage MP through weaving in physics and adlos properly, using lustrate properly, managing their fairy, and managing aetherflow, and of course timing/pacing
WHM manage MP more through timing/pacing, sticking with regen+cure1 as much as possible except for using that freecure proc. Good management of SoS is also extremely important. But it is more beneficial for the whm to spec PIE than the sch.

SCH dps is great for boss-type encounters. They can put up DoTs in clerics, and lustrate isnt affected by stance changes, neither is the fairy. fairy + whm + emergency lustrates are enough for many phases of boss mechanics for a good while. Additionally, bane works well for smaller pulls in dungeons. Still, have to be careful on timing with cleric's stance.
WHM dps is more lackluster for single-target; however, they excel at aoe damage. Holy does not have a target limit like bane does as well, so it works really well on very large pulls while also providing a bit of cc. However, Regen needs to be put up possibly with divine seal before-hand because benediction and stoneskin are the only moves really that arent affected by the stance change. So you have to be extra careful on the timing.

Both healers need to be using virus and eye for an eye appropriately and without accidentally both using it at the same time, so takes some coordination there. These skills are great in many situations and should not be neglected! But be careful because SCH virus has a little more utility, so in some spots they should definitely get priority on that move.

Raising - the general order for who does raises is SMN->SCH->WHM but it doesnt have to be that way. If a WHM is doing well on MP they can raise just as easily. My group often does it with that priority but also based on who has swiftcast up. Interestingly, if none have swiftcast up, the whm could try to use the spellspeed buff and then cast it for a faster raise.

Remember, for SCH, fairy management is about placement and targeting. and although in some cases you can use them somewhat interchangeably, aetherflow for mp is NOT the same as SoS for mp. So if you swap classes, you need to think of them a little differently:

Aetherflow is for mp management as well as Lustrate charge management (also sacred soil and energy drain, but Lustrates are more useful in a lot of situations since its instant off-GCD mega healing). Aetherflow is available very quickly (1 min recast timer?) and the mp gained is instant.
SoS is for mp management as well as hate management. Try to save it for the mp if you can!! But it can be good to blow simply for emergency hate issues. I try to save it til I need it for mp, and sometimes I will be in the yellow or orange before I get to that, but it only matters in the end if you take hate and get hit. Just watch for that. Also, it has a longer cooldown (2 min. maybe? I can't remember off the top of my head) and it is an mp regen not instant mp.

Keep in mind that while physic+embrace is about as powerful as a cure2 at the price of a cure1, the fairy can't embrace at the same rate as the sch's physics (it is slower). WHMs also have regen which people tend to forget to include in that. Regen should be up on a tank most all the time. And don't forget you can divine seal + regen for a really nice hp regen.

And most importantly for both classes -- trust the other healer! If you can't trust the other healer, you need to find a new one. or improve yourself (as maybe the actual case is the other healer can't trust you!). Healers work best if they are really in-sync with the fight's pacing etc. and also with each other. Knowing what the other healer is going to do helps you know what you need to do, so it may take a little time getting used to each other while also getting used to the fights. But it can really work well!

[Bigpurpleharness]

That is actually quite true. We don't have a massive heal like Cure 2 with Divine Seal. Our Physick + Embrace does equal a Cure 2, but sometimes Eos decides to heal somebody else, even if you're manually spamming it on the tank.

I have never had Eos heal someone other than the person I've targetted, and SCH can bust out WAY higher numbers than a WHM ever could for ST, both over the length of a fight, and in a single GCD. Lustrate/Physick/RousedEmbrace absolutely decimates WHM in ST healing. If you're using more Lustrates than you have aetherflow charges... IDK what to tell you, sounds like the tank isn't doing his job right.

There is no way for a WHM to compare to a SCH's single target. Period.

[Okashii]

IDK what to tell you, sounds like the tank isn't doing his job right.

Or the other healer!! My SCH buddy sometimes swaps over to tank when we try to form a farming party for primals/T5. The number of bad WHM/SCH out there is astounding. Just the other night, I had one scoff at me for my HPS. Nevermind my good heal timing. Nevermind the fact that they almost never used adlo, let the tank die before lustrating at 3 aetherflow stacks, didnt seem to know what a cooldown was... they wanted me to cure3 both stacks during fireballs and conflags because... yeah thats needed at 15% echo buff... And they whined about my HPS like that is an important stat at all (not sure they'd ever beaten T5 actually). And a lot of whm's I see don't pace themselves/use SoS right/wtf is freecure? and so they go oom pretty fast or even pull hate depending. So yeah, anyways, if the sch is out of lustrates, it may be anyone's fault really.

[Cynfael]

snip

Sorry about your T5 experience. It's ridiculous to expect that the WHM is going to bust out Cure III just for Fireballs. Not only should the SCH have precast Succor in anticipation of the Fireball to take some of the edge off, you have plenty of time to recover from Fireball hits since that's the ONLY damage anyone should be taking in that phase aside from the tank and whoever is slow-roasting inside of a Conflagration. It makes me very nervous when a WHM is visibly running out of mana and Conflags aren't even done yet, and overreacting to the Fireball damage is probably a big reason why that happens.

[Okashii]

Sorry about your T5 experience. It's ridiculous to expect that the WHM is going to bust out Cure III just for Fireballs. Not only should the SCH have precast Succor in anticipation of the Fireball to take some of the edge off, you have plenty of time to recover from Fireball hits since that's the ONLY damage anyone should be taking in that phase aside from the tank and whoever is slow-roasting inside of a Conflagration. It makes me very nervous when a WHM is visibly running out of mana and Conflags aren't even done yet, and overreacting to the Fireball damage is probably a big reason why that happens.

Yeah, I think healers need to calm down a little bit massive damage is no problem. If no one dies, its really easy to heal up. Also, I think I will use "slow roasting inside of a Conflagration" from now on XD