Thread: To the Complainers... GTFO, 1.18 ROCKS!

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Having two healers (which you should have anyways) switching to keep the party alive.....

....vs. nobody even knows what the hell you were trying to say with two archers since another archer's enmity does not affect you unless he is doing more (so he's trying to get you killed by not gaining enmity or what?).

The point I'm making is no job, regardless of role, should have to sit on the sidelines during a fight.
That's something we had to do in XI and XI had one of the most boring battle systems I've ever played.

If I'm in the fight, I want to be in the fight. Do I think MP on Cure and Raise should have been increased? Yes, I sure do. Do I think it should be that after 7 casts of a spell I have to wait 3 minutes to rejoin my companions? No, not at all.

Archers can control their damage and thus their enmity. They can slow their shooting speed, pace their buffs. They can do a lot to shed enmity and still be engaged and participating. There's no way a system that REQUIRED Archers to simply put their bow away and stand idle for 3 minutes would EVER, EVER, EVER take off in ANY MMO. So why should mages have to do it? Because that's the status quo?

...but XIV already broke that status quo? I already was casting DOT, nuking, Spirit Dart, Healing, Siphoning, Tanking sometimes - I was doing all kinds of *** and having fun, for 30 *** minute fights sometimes. My MP wasn't infinite. I did have to ease up or slow down or when *** hit the fan put my weapon away and regen 100-200 - but never ever did I zero out during a normal fight and then just have to sit back and let someone else sub into the game for me.

You really think that's an acceptable model? and if so why is it so unacceptable for melee? Why aren't they forced to sit out and watch while another melee subs in for them?

How is this strategic, how is it balanced, how does this make playing more fun?
Can you answer that?

The analogy isn't bad. It's a double standard.

Originally Posted by Shai

The point I'm making is no job, regardless of role, should have to sit on the sidelines during a fight.
That's something we had to do in XI and XI had one of the most boring battle systems I've ever played.

If I'm in the fight, I want to be in the fight. Do I think MP on Cure and Raise should have been increased? Yes, I sure do. Do I think it should be that after 7 casts of a spell I have to wait 3 minutes to rejoin my companions? No, not at all.

Archers can control their damage and thus their enmity. They can slow their shooting speed, pace their buffs. They can do a lot to shed enmity and still be engaged and participating. There's no way a system that REQUIRED Archers to simply put their bow away and stand idle for 3 minutes would EVER, EVER, EVER take off in ANY MMO. So why should mages have to do it? Because that's the status quo?

...but XIV already broke that status quo? I already was casting DOT, nuking, Spirit Dart, Healing, Siphoning, Tanking sometimes - I was doing all kinds of *** and having fun, for 30 *** minute fights sometimes. My MP wasn't infinite. I did have to ease up or slow down or when *** hit the fan put my weapon away and regen 100-200 - but never ever did I zero out during a normal fight and then just have to sit back and let someone else sub into the game for me.

You really think that's an acceptable model? and if so why is it so unacceptable for melee? Why aren't they forced to sit out and watch while another melee subs in for them?

How is this strategic, how is it balanced, how does this make playing more fun?
Can you answer that?

The analogy isn't bad. It's a double standard.

Either you make MP infinite or you have healers start sitting out to regen MP. No two ways about it.

Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX

Either you make MP infinite or you have healers start sitting out to regen MP. No two ways about it.

incorrect, you can make mana into a replenishable thing via skills. or have preventive magic spells, like a spell that halves the dmg on one target, spreads dmg out, reduces dmg based on your stats, or skills. Take a look at GW 1, they really made the healer class have a number of different styles, and also made it so with proper skill use, you rarely ran out of mp in a good build.

the failure of the current system is resorting to having people wait on mp while doing nothing, instead of actively managing mp, or using skills that prevent dmg actively.

But it is possible that if you use all your tools, maybe you can not put away your weapon, i dunno havent tried con yet, but i prolly wont.

Originally Posted by Shai

The point I'm making is no job, regardless of role, should have to sit on the sidelines during a fight.
That's something we had to do in XI and XI had one of the most boring battle systems I've ever played.

If I'm in the fight, I want to be in the fight. Do I think MP on Cure and Raise should have been increased? Yes, I sure do. Do I think it should be that after 7 casts of a spell I have to wait 3 minutes to rejoin my companions? No, not at all.

Archers can control their damage and thus their enmity. They can slow their shooting speed, pace their buffs. They can do a lot to shed enmity and still be engaged and participating. There's no way a system that REQUIRED Archers to simply put their bow away and stand idle for 3 minutes would EVER, EVER, EVER take off in ANY MMO. So why should mages have to do it? Because that's the status quo?

...but XIV already broke that status quo? I already was casting DOT, nuking, Spirit Dart, Healing, Siphoning, Tanking sometimes - I was doing all kinds of *** and having fun, for 30 *** minute fights sometimes. My MP wasn't infinite. I did have to ease up or slow down or when *** hit the fan put my weapon away and regen 100-200 - but never ever did I zero out during a normal fight and then just have to sit back and let someone else sub into the game for me.

You really think that's an acceptable model? and if so why is it so unacceptable for melee? Why aren't they forced to sit out and watch while another melee subs in for them?

How is this strategic, how is it balanced, how does this make playing more fun?
Can you answer that?

The analogy isn't bad. It's a double standard.

basically i agree, if they wanted to increase mp management, they should have more management tools, it would also have been better if they wanted to make a dedicated healer, that they actually add a new class instead of shoehorning whm into con.

Doing large mp sink cures also wouldnt be as bad if there was more preventive protection and support abilities.

the new mp sink heavy system is creating a mini return to the resting system, that i think everyone was happy to see go, if they wanted you to manage your mp, they need to give you mp management skills, not just put away your weapon and do nothing. you should have better means of getting mp in battle than putting away your weapon and waiting.

It needs more balancing, or more skills, or maybe a different class doing it.

Its funny that they made con good at all magic, but just by making cures important, and making it con specific by an large, they have essentially made it so they will be forced to be WHM 90% of the time.

oh wells

Originally Posted by Jabo

You don't just sit around, you time your ability's! Better timing, less waiting.
How people really want mindless spamming back is beyond me. Seriously.
I like playing healers and i couldn't be more happy about the fact that healing finally means something.
This game was waaaaaaaay too easy. Especially for mages...

Spoken like a true non-mage.

I don't set the timing, bub. How much damage my *** party members takes does. I can Cure 1x a fight or 100x a fight depending on *** out of my control. I don't even understand what abilities you're talking about and what you expect me to do when I'm down to 10mp and have a 8min wait on Tranquility. I should start spamming Trance Chant? I should Spirit Bind and find a 20mp spell?

I definitely just sit around when I'm out of MP. I have nothing more to contribute because 1.18 made sure of it.

Edit: If you (as a Gladiator) surrounded yourself with mages who "mindlessly" spammed Cure 3 AOE rather than actually use their *** abilities like Spirit Dart, Nuke (assuming you guys BR - wild assumption, though), keep up at least 3 if not 5 Damage-Over-Time, then you were really setting your entire team at a disadvantage and you should fire those guys.

I mean honestly. Do you really think all there was to being a mage yesterday is mindless AOE Cure Spam? That's your stance on it? I'm here to tell you it was a lot more complex - in fact it was as complex as the mage player himself wanted it to be and the better he multitasked the easier fights were for everyone, but now I just kinda stand around waiting to cure because god forbid I run out of MP and we wipe.

Originally Posted by Shai

Spoken like a true non-mage.

As you can see i have a Rank 29 THM and a Rank 22 CON which i leveld in the first month of the game where getting to Rank 20 took a week. Plus i play in every MMO a Paladin and a White Mage. So healing is kind of the most important matter to me, regarding MMOs.

I don't set the timing, bub. How much damage my idiot party members takes does.

You have Sacrifice, you have cure, you have Siphon MP. You also have Potions and you can put points in MND or buy MP gear, if you have a MP problem.
Also it depends on what you are doing. Grind Party? Than you need at least a backup healer or a tank who can watch his HP a little? Behest and Leves? Never an MP issue. Soloing? Was never meant to be for grinding!

I definitely just sit around when I'm out of MP. I have nothing more to contribute because 1.18 made sure of it.

1.18 made every party member think for once what they are doing. The amount you could spam healing spells was ridiculous. It was so ridiculous that people stopped thinking of how they could improve their healing.
Now they have to thing more about their stats, their gear and their way to play.

Edit: If you (as a Gladiator) surrounded yourself with mages who "mindlessly" spammed Cure 3 AOE rather than actually use their *** abilities like Spirit Dart, Nuke (assuming you guys BR - wild assumption, though), keep up at least 3 if not 5 Damage-Over-Time, then you were really setting your entire team at a disadvantage and you should fire those guys.

Where are you getting that? I said people could and did spam cure. I didn't say it was all they were doing.
Also i talked from a healer perspective not a Gladiator one.

I mean honestly. Do you really think all there was to being a mage yesterday is mindless AOE Cure Spam? That's your stance on it?

And again. I never said that!
Healing was mindless spamming, not playing a mage!

I'm here to tell you it was a lot more complex - in fact it was as complex as the mage player himself wanted it to be and the better he multitasked the easier fights were for everyone, but now I just kinda stand around waiting to cure because god forbid I run out of MP and we wipe.

You say it was complex, I say mages kicked the butt out of everything in this game. They did ridiculous damage and they could heal non stop or did you see a melee class soloing NM's?
Mages were way to powerful. This is the truth "bro".

Originally Posted by Jabo

As you can see i have a Rank 29 THM and a Rank 22 CON which i leveld in the first month of the game where getting to Rank 20 took a week. Plus i play in every MMO a Paladin and a White Mage. So healing is kind of the most important matter to me, regarding MMOs.

I did see that, so I know you certainly weren't main healer at Great Buffalo yesterday, or running through Rank 45 dungeon on your Conjurer in the last 12 hours. I, on the other hand, have been doing both and have been Rank 50 Conjurer since ... January or February. I'm not saying I'm better than you or anything, I'm just saying I'm speaking from a "I've been doing this *** and I know what it's like today compared to before 1.18" point of view.

You have Sacrifice, you have cure, you have Siphon MP. You also have Potions and you can put points in MND or buy MP gear, if you have a MP problem. Also it depends on what you are doing. Grind Party? Than you need at least a backup healer or a tank who can watch his HP a little? Behest and Leves? Never an MP issue. Soloing? Was never meant to be for grinding!

I use Cure, Sacrifice, Siphon MP - in fact 2 of 3 action bars are JUST filled with Cures now (thanks for removing AOE) and Prot/Shell and Raise. It's a tad ***. Yesterday Cure 2/3, Sac 2/3, Prot Shell and Raise all on 1 bar. Really freed up the other bars for - everything else I could do. Nuke, DoT and spam regular attacks, Siphon TP and Levinbolt/Flashfreeze, but hey who needs that *** now.

The only thing you listed I haven't used is potions or ethers and if they still heal as terribly as they did yesterday (100 HP and 50 MP or worse) then I probably never will. If they did increase the potency of items I'd be all for it as an offset to healing - man that would be great AND as a 43 Alchemist I could actually make something (besides shards) that people would actually buy! What a novel idea!

1.18 made every party member think for once what they are doing. The amount you could spam healing spells was ridiculous. It was so ridiculous that people stopped thinking of how they could improve their healing.
Now they have to thing more about their stats, their gear and their way to play.

I'm trying to impress upon you that if any of your mages are simply spamming cure without thinking in anything other than behest, they are doing you a vast disservice. It's simply not the optimal way to play mage. It actually took a lot of thought, a lot of strategy and a lot of MP management YESTERDAY. Now, all I do is watch HP and Cure and passive when I don't need to cure. That's the opposite of engaging gameplay and simply not a strategy I'm interested in.

Where are you getting that? I said people could and did spam cure. I didn't say it was all they were doing.
Also i talked from a healer perspective not a Gladiator one.

I'm saying if they did Cure spam, they were bad mages. Yep, I went there. DOT are (were?) by far the best damage you could deal to the R50 content. Ever since the shift from 15-man to 8-man teams, we always have at least 3 DOT up at any given time. Aside from that CON + THM opening a Battle Regiment setup for good WS burst, or could end with Magic Burst - there was so much I could do yesterday and now I simply can't because Cure 3 Costs 130 *** MP. Everything I could have done with that 100 extra MP I can't do today.

It's not a step forward. It's a tragedy really.

That thread already exists, bro.

I'm just shooting down these *** who think mages got what they deserved.

Apparently if you're a melee, you can participate in a battle 100% of the time, but if you're a mage, you should only be useful 50% of the time and the other 50% you should be hanging out somewhere in the corner avoiding AOE and waiting for your MP to gather around you.

I understand that with Job System and Materia System and stats attached to my class (that mean something) this MIGHT just all balance out, but the MP cost on Cure 3 will still be outrageous and in the meantime I have a broken *** job that I don't want to play. I should just suck it up and wait 1 more month or 2 or hey why not 6 for them to *** fix it? Yeah, awesome. That makes me want to play.

Unlike half the *** I saw today, I have been playing this game for the last 9 months uninterrupted and I actually want to keep playing. I don't want to *** wait a minute longer for my class to be useable again. So sorry if I'm a little irritated about this "suck it up" attitude. You try going into passive mode for 33% of every battle over the course of 1 hour long dungeon raid and come back and tell me if it was fun for you or not. You pick the class. I'm sure the answer will be the same if you're Gladiator, Archer, Marauder or Conjurer. It's lame.