Protesting Frontlines

[Nalien]

Edit: Well you get better skills. That should be enough.
Or make the materia work in fl so that pvp gear ends up having a little advantage or well be equal since it's losing one stat.

Possibly, but that just means people are actually OK with there not being a level playing field. One player has better skills, the other doesn't. Apparently that's fine.
At least if there is an i65 Morale boost, that is something that they can use to easily close the gap while still providing reason to progress. I can't imagine an equivalent for skills, but maybe you have a suggestion?

On gear, I don't imagine materia will make a difference. With an i80 cap, i70 PvP gear with melds to fix the missing stat Morale provides still isn't worthwhile; you'd still be in i70 instead of i80. With i90/i100, well I'm not actually sure how materia works when it comes to caps. If they raise the iCap to i90 in Frontlines (they said either i80 or i90 iirc), then the crafted i90 stuff is still better than PvP gear. PvP gear, with melds, would still only be just as good as PvE gear, at best. PvE gear would still be vastly superior even if that's the case, simply because it's so much easier to obtain, and (sans i90 crafted) requires no additional work through melds.

That is unless PvP materia makes a difference, but I don't remember it ever being worthwhile, seeing as it knocks down the duration a % rather than giving a % resistance iirc. Sleep and Bind were the only ones worth a damn iirc. Even if it is worthwhile, once again, it just goes to show that we're not against there being a non-skill (personal skill, not in-game skills/abilities) based difference in players.

[Edenlys]

Imo leave it equal for everyone or don't bother.
Edit: Well you get better skills. That should be enough.
Or make the materia work in fl so that pvp gear ends up having a little advantage or well be equal since it's losing one stat.

I guess not, because ilvl80 sync every player up to ilvl80 will receive all stat capped !!! For exemple, all healers will have 3800 hp and same amount of mind (even if one have full mind jewel and other have full vitality jewel), same thing for tank with vita or strengh jewel, they will have same stats...
There is no place to itemisation with this ilvl sync...
Imo, poorly geared players still have 2800hp, low stat... I guess, it's better to make an ilvl required to join party and remove all restriction in..

SE actually ruins this pvp with every stupid idea and requirement since 2.2...

Ilvl Sync is a far bad idea, maybe give a reduction for ilvl70 pvp gear to promote pvp system for new players and give possibility to join wolves den in near future with gear obtain in FL...
An i110 pvp gear obtain in FL should be better idea to promote this feature and participation than a stupide mount...

[Koltik]

It's simple. Frontlines requires a lot of players, something PvP does not have. If they let Morale work in Frontlines, then non-pvpers wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and frontlines would be a dud.

As a retired Rank 30 PvPer, I approve and encourage this choice.

[Ransu]

SE actually ruins this pvp with every stupid idea and requirement since 2.2...

Ilvl Sync is a far bad idea, maybe give a reduction for ilvl70 pvp gear to promote pvp system for new players and give possibility to join wolves den in near future with gear obtain in FL...
An i110 pvp gear obtain in FL should be better idea to promote this feature and participation than a stupide mount...

Its not a stupid idea at all. PvP gear should of never been added to begin with and SE realizes they made a mistake with that.

[Nalien]

It's simple. Frontlines requires a lot of players, something PvP does not have. If they let Morale work in Frontlines, then non-pvpers wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot pole and frontlines would be a dud.

Why would non-PvPers be touching Frontlines in the first place? The majority of them seem to think PvP has no place in a Final Fantasy game anyway, I doubt they'll be trying it out regardless; most of the ones I came across in General Discussion were frankly completely ignorant of PvP and were only agreeing with no Morale because others were.

I really don't get it, doing away with Morale makes it a level playing field? No it doesn't. Doing away with Morale just does away with one of PvPs key sense of progression; obtaining new PvP gear. With out a stat differentiating the two, PvP and PvE gear are identical. You still have players that are better than others, and not because of their personal skill. You have players who've earned more AP and thus fire off their PvP skills more often and for greater effect, as well as boosting stats. You have players who are different races (highest VIT to lowest VIT was an 8 point difference I think). Even with an i80 cap you'll probably end up seeing players with different gear, if they set it to i90 instead like they've talked about, then the person who buys and melds crafted gear has the advantage.

The only issue Morale brings is when it is a significantly higher amount of Morale. Like I've suggested, they can solve that issue with a buff. How will they be solving AP and racial differences? They can solve gear differences by just making a standard set of gear you aim to obtain when doing Frontlines. I'd say i70 PvP gear would fit that slot nicely, worst case they just need to make a few adjustments to Wolf Marks to ensure that isn't such a daunting task. Honestly, i70 PvP gear should just be handed to players as quickly as possible, then the difference in Morale is laughable. Giving people without any PvP gear a buff that provides Morale is a great way to completely remove any issues before they obtain the gear, and it's hardly a difficult thing to do.

Oh, and before anyone bothers, the AP difference will not be solved by the queuing system. You can already group a Rank 40 with a Rank 1 to balance their Ranks out and get them into matches faster; Frontlines has a lot more freedom in that regard. Being 24v24v24 there is a lot more room to balance out a teams Rank, there is a lot of potential for higher Ranks to find their way in and have an advantage because of it.

Personally, I don't mind the concept of people having an advantage, because I know (or hope) the teams will be balanced. If Team Maelstrom has a few high Ranks, so will Team Twin Adder, and Team Immortal Flames. That's also why I don't mind the concept of Morale playing a part, seeing as Morale gear is pretty much tied to your Rank, with the only advantage being "I won more rounds, so I got the gear while being a lower Rank than you".

[Kantei]

Long Thread to catch up on.

At this point, I'm going assume most here know of my event "Friendlies".

I'm going to approach this topic from two view points: Me as a pug match PvPer, who uses tiered gear in that mode, and me, the community organizer who forces item level caps on every event we run.

I enjoy pug PvP, spent nearly 6 months grinding out PvP and ignoring PvE because I enjoy PvP so much. But I can tell if my team is going to win or lose before the match even starts. How? I know all the hard core PvPers, what they look like, and who they group up with. Next we take which side got which bots into account, and then finally, I check everyone's gear. The match is usually decided before it even begins. After 3k matches in 6 months, that is what Pug PvP is to me, simple math stacked one way or another.

It can sometimes be fun. Most of the time it's a chore, and rarely do I ever see real team work in pug matches.

Then there is my event, Friendlies.

Until 2-3 weeks ago, we had three modifiers that decided what gear everyone can use.

Does everyone have PvP gear? No, See PvE rules.
Does everyone have i90 PvE? Yes? Run PvE rules. No? See naked rules.

If it came to naked rules(which our event ended up being 80% of the time). Everyone was instructed to take off all clothing that provided beneficial stats. Vanity/crafting was still allowed.

Naked rules made all players involved between ilvl 14-16. Just about everyone in my link shell, would request naked rules even if everyone had i90 sets, because it was what we found to be the most balanced rule set we tried. Plus they were having fun making "Friendlies" vanity sets for i14 PvP.

Out of about 300 players I received feed back from on "Friendlies" about 5 preferred PvE rules over naked, mainly because they had i115 weapons and them putting up 40k damage versus the 15-30k others in i90 were putting up.

In situations where an i60 and an i108 would show up to the event, the i108 would suggest we run PvE since only 1 person fell below the requirements. If they complained after I told them to stick to the rules, I would make an exception for both team.

He gets to wear what ever he wants, if I get to wear what ever I want.

He would equip 108 PvE, I would wear a mix of i90/i100 PvP. Each team had 1 stacked member. I would rush their i108 player, kill him, then steamroll the i14 members.

After the match, I simply said "This is what gear melting looks like, lemme know when you want naked rules." Never seen a try hard last more than 2 rounds without saying naked was fairer, and here is the key, more fun.

SE seems to be implementing the answer I found a while ago when I wanted to make PvP more accessible and after nearly 600 matches of running a similar rule set for front lines in Wolves Den, I can say this for sure. The new way is way better, I am pissed to not have 6 months worth of work not count in a PvP mode. But I rather have fun versus gear melting noobs trying to learn PvP. And as stated before my i100 gear doesn't help me against i100 players. Morale, PvP gear. So it really just boils down to team play and positioning, instead of stacking the math in one way or another.

While I still find no morale a slap in the face(if it ends even being the case), I have to say after running a very similar style of PvP. It the superior model. I would trust SE on this for the sake of your own enjoyment and better matches all around.

[Ransu]

I really don't get it, doing away with Morale makes it a level playing field? No it doesn't.

Doing away with Morale just does away with one of PvPs key sense of progression; obtaining new PvP gear.

1.) Yes it does. It removes the gear gap, leaving only skill being the deciding factor, which is how pvp SHOULD be.

2.) I used to feel that way in swtor. But really pvp should never have any sort of gear progression. A ranking system? Sure. Vanity rewards? Sure. But a pure gear advantage? No, that's just dumb. Gear gaps nullify skill. In swtor there was a trick with low level pvp weapons where there was a refund timer of 2 hours so you'd just buy the weapons and before the timer went out you'd traded them back in and the timer paused when you logged out. The commendation cap was 2750. You needed about 15k comms to get full gear and about 20k to min max.

I used to level alts strictly in pvp from 50-55 saving up those low level pvp weapons so I could be fully geared by 55. Why? Because if I didn't and just jumped into pvp, I could be 10x better than the other player, but because he's geared I have zero chance of killing him regardless of skill simply because I'd only hit him for 3k and he'd hit me (assuming I had 0 expertise) for 12k easily. That is just silly to me.

For the longest time I didn't care because it was so easy to get gear, but after awhile I thought to myself "why is this even a thing?" In pve, gear progression makes complete sense. But in a competitive environment such as pvp? It's stupid.

[Menriq]

I keep reading the gear gap across all the different threads. What I haven't seen (or if I have missed it, I apologize and please let me know where the post is) is the discrepancy in AP available to a R40 vs a person stepping into PvP for the first time and how that is a "level playing field".

[Nalien]

1.) Yes it does. It removes the gear gap, leaving only skill being the deciding factor, which is how pvp SHOULD be.

And the gap between Rank/AP, and a (much) lesser extent, racial stats?

Again, they can just close the gear gap with a buff. Everyone is capped to i80 already (if they raise that to i90 like they suggested, thats a big mistake that I wont even entertain at this point), then the difference in Morale is only a critical factor if you have none. A difference between i70 Morale and a capped i80 Morale is much more manageable, just throw in a buff that provides Morale up to a certain point, so it remains accessible while still keeping a progression system.

I agree though, a ranking system (like what we have for GC Seals) would be great. Did Yoshida actually give a reason as to why we don't have that? I get the feeling it'll be the same reasoning we got for Fresh Meat being a thing. If they intend to take out Morale though, they damn sure better have some serious adjustments planned. Wolves' Den simply isn't going to be a thing as it currently stands, except a haven for win traders to obtain their i100 vanity gear; rather than a haven for PvPers.

(or if I have missed it, I apologize and please let me know where the post is)

I mentioned it literally four posts up, and I think somewhere in another thread a few times.

[TriksteR]

FL having/not having morale stats and ilvl 70/80/90 whatever sync, I will still play it like no tomorrow! The only thing I'm actually worried about is people botting...
PS: I'm rank 35 and I know how annoying it is to rank up to get the top tier gear, hopefully 30min p/ match will give a good amount of exp/wolf marks.