Protesting Frontlines

[Nalien]

Nalien, Wolves Den is only short if the teams are mismatched. Some of have been in PvP matches that featured 2 limit breaks from 1 team.

And most matches are mismatched. I have been in some long matches before, but they're incredibly rare if you actually queue rather than setting up matches. When you're playing with friends in your own little bubble, sure matches will be longer and more enjoyable, but Duty Finder matches simply are not like that.

If you think a short cool down is less important in a shortergame mode over a longer one. I'm not sure we can have an proper conversation about this.

Shorter cooldowns are next to worthless, when the majority of your matches don't go over three minutes. You're setting up your own matches against friends, that results in an even pairing which prolongs matches. Again, most matches are not like that, so for most matches, the cooldown reduction is worthless. I'm not going to set AP in that reduction when my matches don't last two minutes, let alone three. I will almost always set it in something that provides an instant bonus that will end the match faster.

The length of the match matters not. Because the damage rotations still end up the same regardless of the time of theatch. I.e. you can only do so much damage in 6 mins.

I'm really not sure what your group is putting AP on, but in a six minute match with recasts dropped on one said, and no AP on the other, that is a very real difference. One side gets all those abilities twice, the other gets them once. I'm not even got to calculate the amount of additional DPS and mitigation that would provide, it should just be plainly apparent to everybody. If one side has AP, one side doesn't, and the match exceeds five minutes, then the difference those recast traits provide is very real.

I'm really not sure what to say to you if you don't think that isn't unbalanced. One person can use their skills twice, the other can only use them once. That is a very obvious advantage, which really should be being treated the same as Morale, all things considered. Regardless of the effect, one side is getting a very clear advantage over the other.

People seem to be against giving PvE players a boost of Morale to even out players and make Morale less of a deciding factor, yet they seem to be fine with AP offering a similar advantage. I really don't get it. People are practically demanding Morale be gone to level the playing field, yet they're fine with leaving something in which by its very nature gives a small advantage to players. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Either you want a level playing field, or you don't. If the bonus a difference in AP provides is so minor, why are people against Morale so much? Why out right remove it when you could just make it so the difference between Morale is no more as powerful as a difference in AP? Why does it have to go, when they could just rebalance it closer to something we're all apparently fine with?

Your trying to argue against me, but now your arguing your own points.

Giving morale to players without PvP armor, means they still have one more substat than you.

Taking morale out of front lines, means they have 1 more substat than you.

Read my earlier posts; I'm suggesting a Morale buff that puts you around i65, which puts you at a slight disadvantage, even with the additional stat. I also suggested adjustments to Morale in general, and the progression of Rank/Marks, to facilitate a less annoying grind/advantage.

Either way, at this point your suggested fix isn't better than SE's. Arguing against AP but for Morale is.....just a spiteful conversation...think I'm done here O.o

Don't mistake my intent. I'm not arguing against AP and for Morale here. I'm simply asking; Why is an AP advantage allowed, and a Morale one not? I'm not arguing we shouldn't have AP, but keep Morale, I'm simply wondering why one advantage is allowed and another not. It is a genuine question aside from the debate of Morale.

People who are against Morale, apparently in any form since they disagree with any suggestion that would adjust Morale, claim to be against it because it provides a level playing field. OK, I can understand that. The thing is though, a level playing field, by its very definition, should be level. How then, is a difference in AP being allowed? Why is nobody against AP? Why are you defending AP?

It does not allow a level playing field, that's just simple maths. If I have AP and you don't, then I have an advantage. In a 15 minute match, I get to use my abilities 5 times, you get to use them 3 times, how is that level? I'm firing of skills more often. My skills have greater potency. That is an advantage. That is something I have, that my opponent does not. That is a text book case of one side having an advantage, the very thing we are apparently happy to see the back end of Morale for.

Is it because it isn't a significant advantage? I mean, I see it as quite significant, since I'm quite literally getting more uses out of PvP skills than my opponent (while my team is getting hit with Full Swings effect once, I'm hitting their team with it twice), but I wont disagree if you say it's insignificant. Point is, it is still an advantage. We are not on the glorious level playing field the removal of Morale promises if someone has an advantage. If it's OK because it's insignificant, then why are people so against any adjustment to Morale?

I think I might finally understand how to explain something to you Nalien. Hopefully this might make sense so you understand the other side.

A pvp stat enhances your innate damage AND your innate defense. Every ability and auto attack you give and receive benefits from it. This means taking less dmg, giving more and being easier to heal. All in one uber stat! It's also usually an exponential increase,the more you have the better it gets. Now imagine in one year, two years time how much morale will be in gear? It's always on, 100% uptime means it has a higher weight than any other upgrade to abilities, cool downs or other things.

Reducing one abiliites cool down by 2 minutes? Not anywhere near as good is it? That's why the increases to abilities and stuff are good advancements and morale isn't.

Oh, I understand that it's potentially not as big an advantage, my point is that it is an advantage though.

From my position it just seems incredibly hypocritical to go around praising the removal of Morale in creating a level playing field, while simultaneously being absolutely OK with another form of advantage. I mean, I've commonly been suggesting changing Morale and leveling the gap with boosts, to make it much less of an advantage, but that apparently doesn't matter. PvP gear and stats are just innately bad, no matter how you try to work them, but traits are perfectly fine. Again, it comes off as very hypocritical. It seems that literally no suggestion I make for Morale can change peoples minds because it would "be unfair and give players an advantage", but at the same time we're all perfectly fine with there actually being an advantage with traits. So what is it; Are we against having advantages or not?

As for the persistence and progression of Morale;

Firstly, the additional stats from traits aren't persistent? Morale could be exactly the same as them, I'd actually rather see them removed and Morale replace them in potency.
Secondly, if they even bother bringing PvP gear beyond i100, they can just do the same as what I've already suggested; in a i100 PvP event, provide a Echo type buff for players with no Morale.

They probably shouldn't raise PvP gear anymore though, and that probably seems against everything I've said previously about progression keeping the PvP community alive, which I guess it is, but once you've been doing PvP, once you've obtained those Ranks and gear, you're in. If you go out and earn a toy (in this case gear/AP) you're going to want to play with it; that's part of the reason people are even upset about their Morale doing nothing. Rather than continuing to raise the ranks and adding new gear, they should instead just focus on new game modes and new Jobs, that partly adds a new reason to grind (who doesn't want their Ninja to be the bat man?). Progression should simply be there to initially draw people in and get them invested. Once they're invested there is little need for it.

Just for a reference here, I remember a time in that "other" game (WoW) where a fight between equally geared players would be measured in minutes....and a fight between a geared player and someone purposefully going in with NO pvp gear to illustrate how broken resilience was lasting maybe 7 seconds. Yes, a skilled pvp player with no gear who literally lasted less than 10 seconds who when geared could make anyone work for a kill. That's not even in the same universe as a cool down reduction is it?

What about this example means they cannot adjust and rebalance Morale? I said it before, but it really does seem like nothing could redeem it in peoples eyes; I could suggest making it so 100 Morale is equal to +1 Defense and +1 Auto-attack potency, and it would still be bad. Meanwhile, if my team gets an additional 10% damage on your healer because I put AP in Full Swing and your team has no AP, that's fair.

If Resilience is broken, if Morale is broken, I'd fix them or throw them out completely. I said it before, but Morale can either work in Wolves' Den and Frontlines, or it can be removed completely. I'd actually argue Morale is more of an issue in Wolves' Den than it could ever be in Frontlines, just because of how the numbers will balance out with Frontlines.

I guess people see morale as bad because it does everything. It's a "wonder stat". Nothing else in game does as much as it does. It makes everything better. And even if you made it so 100 points translated to +1 after so many patches and gear upgrades you get to the point you have 5000 morale. Stat inflation is an argument for another thread though lol. People kind of expect super stats and huge gear gaps in arena purely cause the ranked stuff is a lot of e-peen bragging on who's best. I wouldn't care if they got rid of it totally though and changed the existing gear to have a different stat on it.

May as well have it here, since we're just editing (<3 you daily limit).

Since it's a wonder stat, you having it is immediately offset by me having it as well. The stat is void in such a scenario; if we have equal Morale, there is no difference. Likewise, if we don't have equal Morale, but just a small difference, the stat is far less effective. Stats like Morale only become a problem when there is a significant difference in two peoples amounts; when one person has a lot, and another has none. Balance it around that concept and just go "If you have Morale below this amount, we'll give you a boost", like I've suggested. For Frontlines that would currently mean; i90/100 PvP capped down to i80, i70 PvP, and i80 PvE given an i65 amount of Morale. That difference in Morale might be too much, but in that case you just rescale it so that it isn't. Ideally it should be no different than boosting your stats with AP, since that is something we all seem to be fine with.

[Pibz]

I'm not sure where the insults are from, but if it makes you feel better, go for it. I've started getting back into PvP now that my group has had T9 on farm for a while. While others in my group decide to play other games, I decided to pick back up PvP. I have yet to insult anyone, and just because your opinion is different than mine doesn't mean I can't respect your position. I'm sorry if you felt an honest question of how a R40 vs a R1 in terms of AP over the course of a 30 minute fight could be considered an uneven playing field. I honestly couldn't care less about morale since I do PvP as something casually, and actually look forward to objective based PvP than arena, and was just trying to understand where you were coming from.

Hmm
I'm sorry then, didn't want to make it sound insulting at all, if anything it was more of a joke than anything else and a setup to the 2nd point, but yeah it came off way harsher than i intended, so don't take it too seriously lol.
As for the points i made i stand by them though, abilities have way less of an influence than gear in PvP, and having gear equalized gives us the possibility(gearing up several classes is pretty much impossible through regular means at the moment) to actually multiclass at any point.
Again sorry for answering you like that, was way out of line :/.

[Kantei]

Not worth responding to most of that..

3k matches. 600 in my bubble. I've seen matches last 30 mins in 30s, 40s, and 50's. Inside and outside the bubble.

The difference is I have the bubble O.o. So your making up supposed situations and talking about the imbalance of them.

While a person who has been in the situation, and has tested it out over the course of 2 months, is telling you flat out AP difference account for very little if gear is balanced. There are three skills where having 1-2 upgrades are on them are insane, but low ranks just up grade the best upgrades first O.o

You go on to argue about how I don't think one person having half cool down versus not half cool down makes me an insane person ?

Not sure why you shifted the conversation, but you said fast cool downs were less effective in wolves den. Because the rounds are short. My point was and still is...it affects them both equally. All it does is determine DPS/Mitigation.

Don't warp me debunking your statement of AP difference being more apparent in one mode versus the other into me making another statement lol.

Your trying to argue against me, but now your arguing your own points.

Giving morale to players without PvP armor, means they still have one more substat than you.

Taking morale out of front lines, means they have 1 more substat than you.

Your trying to argue against AP differences but for keeping morale? To be very specific, anyone with even a little analaysis skills can see this reeks of spite and hurt feelings.

So without slinging insults, or making up supposed situations about my event or what sort of major imbalance AP variance causes.

Don't make it about me not knowing what I am talking about this time nailene.

I've pugged PvP from day 1 to now: Double Rez/barrage/blm days, the decent "golden era", the death of good PvP, and even PvP today, pugging right now(wait 17min, average wait time less than 5 mins.)

I had multiple matches this week in pug matches that last to LB. At 34+, it may as well be a closed circuit bubble, it's always the same 30 people, we know each others habits, matches can go on for a bit.

Either way, my event still tested this. And it applies to both wolves den and front lines, because it affects damage/mitigation.

The results are still the same. If the gear is the same, AP, isn't that much of an issue. And with the new update, it's even less of an issue. The big key moves that really change things get upgraded first now, most of the other upgrades, are accents O.o. There are few skills I actually max out. Low level players learn about things quick, they get told every little thing they do wrong after each match

Either way, at this point your suggested fix isn't better than SE's. Arguing against AP but for Morale is.....just a spiteful conversation...think I'm done here O.o

[Rawk]

Snip

3k matches, but aren't you the one that sets up those "friendlies"? It's easy to rack up a ton of matches that way and its borderline win-trading.

You go way out of your way to create a "easy" and "fun" environment for new pvpers, and although commendable, it actually does more harm than good. We're not here to ease babies into a competitive style play, we're here to play against other players in direct competition. Gear, abilities, and skill should all come into play. To ease newer players in there make it easier to grab pvp gear & ranks.

I wouldn't be caught dead in a friendly, because it's probably filled with crappy players, half-a$ pvpers, and a few skilled that get held back by the rest of their team, this is how I imagine frontlines will be without gear.

[zulu_kulu]

Don't mistake my intent. I'm not arguing against AP and for Morale here. I'm simply asking; Why is an AP advantage allowed, and a Morale one not? I'm not arguing we shouldn't have AP, but keep Morale, I'm simply wondering why one advantage is allowed and another not. It is a genuine question aside from the debate of Morale.

People who are against Morale, apparently in any form since they disagree with any suggestion that would adjust Morale, claim to be against it because it provides a level playing field. OK, I can understand that. The thing is though, a level playing field, by its very definition, should be level. How then, is a difference in AP being allowed? Why is nobody against AP? Why are you defending AP?

the reason why they defend AP , but shame morale is quite simple :they do not realize yet how truly important aps are. most players tries to max out their pvp skills before hitting their traits, but i assure once FL comes out, you will hear how "ap is "unbalanced" and needs to be either fully maxed out or restricted to base level in FL. see all these people who doesnt believe this clearly never maxed out their traits and used it in the 30/40 queues. go ahead guys and just do this, i assure you you will see the very clear and overwhelming advantage of AP.just today, i went on a winning streak in the 30s/40s ques just using my mnk,war (not mrd) and smn with just their main trait (on in the war case full str) maxed out and hot hell did the range dps and healer melted.if FL is truly supposed to be a "easy going everyone is equal" battlefield then AP do need to be fully maxed or restricted to base level. also materia need to be cancel out also due the fact you are getting a little bit more stats then everyone else. just make everything completely identical and equal and let skill alone be the determining factor.

[Tandy]

3k matches, but aren't you the one that sets up those "friendlies"? It's easy to rack up a ton of matches that way and its borderline win-trading.

You go way out of your way to create a "easy" and "fun" environment for new pvpers, and although commendable, it actually does more harm than good. We're not here to ease babies into a competitive style play, we're here to play against other players in direct competition. Gear, abilities, and skill should all come into play. To ease newer players in there make it easier to grab pvp gear & ranks.

I wouldn't be caught dead in a friendly, because it's probably filled with crappy players, half-a$ pvpers, and a few skilled that get held back by the rest of their team, this is how I imagine frontlines will be without gear.

Wow tell us how you really feel! God forbid someone try to make a game FUN, it might be the hallmark of the destruction of the entire internet e-peen contests!

[Tandy]

I think I might finally understand how to explain something to you Nalien. Hopefully this might make sense so you understand the other side.

A pvp stat enhances your innate damage AND your innate defense. Every ability and auto attack you give and receive benefits from it. This means taking less dmg, giving more and being easier to heal. All in one uber stat! It's also usually an exponential increase,the more you have the better it gets. Now imagine in one year, two years time how much morale will be in gear? It's always on, 100% uptime means it has a higher weight than any other upgrade to abilities, cool downs or other things.

Reducing one abiliites cool down by 2 minutes? Not anywhere near as good is it? That's why the increases to abilities and stuff are good advancements and morale isn't.



As far as for or against advantages.....I'm fine with normal, rank based advantages within reason. It's the within reason that is the sticking point between you and the ones who don't agree. I see an ability having shorter cool down as not put of bounds by the sheer fact it HAS a cool down. Morale is like taking an ability and removing the cool down totally, which isn't fair.

If you had ever played other MMO games with pvp stats you would understand. But I'm betting this is your first one, so you don't have the past experience in seeing how broken it can really get.....which is, to be blunt, extremely fucking broken.

Just for a reference here, I remember a time in that "other" game (WoW) where a fight between equally geared players would be measured in minutes....and a fight between a geared player and someone purposefully going in with NO pvp gear to illustrate how broken resilience was lasting maybe 7 seconds. Yes, a skilled pvp player with no gear who literally lasted less than 10 seconds who when geared could make anyone work for a kill. That's not even in the same universe as a cool down reduction is it?

Progression and new toys are always something you should get in pvp, but there are ways like titles, vanity gear, mounts and perks that make it still feel worthwhile to rank up but don't make it so your damn near a god against a new player. Some advantage is welcome, within reason. People calling no morale being fair and balanced don't expect everyone to have the same stats/ hp/mp and everything. They just want everyone to have a fair shot at success.

I guess people see morale as bad because it does everything. It's a "wonder stat". Nothing else in game does as much as it does. It makes everything better. And even if you made it so 100 points translated to +1 after so many patches and gear upgrades you get to the point you have 5000 morale. Stat inflation is an argument for another thread though lol. People kind of expect super stats and huge gear gaps in arena purely cause the ranked stuff is a lot of e-peen bragging on who's best. I wouldn't care if they got rid of it totally though and changed the existing gear to have a different stat on it.

From a purely fiscal and financial perspective which would you do if you were in charge? Make it so everyone had gear and ability upgrades that scaled across the board, that you simply add new tiers too....or design a system to constantly scale under geared players up to near where geared players were just so this one stat could exist on gear as you upgraded. Both do the same thing at the end of the day, but one is part of already financed game design (normal upgrades) and one is designing a brand new system to be yet another thing you have to maintain and cost more money? If everyone always has morale near each other, then what's the use of having morale. It's why it's considered a flawed stat period. It's either worthless or overpowered. It should have never been used in first place if they didn't want it, but what's done is done as in many MMO's who made the mistake.

[HaelseMikiro]

Knowing how SE handles things in this game, expect this to only be the FIRST tier of frontlines introduced. No doubt that SE will "observe" how the community handles frontlines for a month or two, and then decide to put out more frontlines with higher ilvl syncs and other stat restrictions/liberties.

[Shake0615]

Knowing how SE handles things in this game, expect this to only be the FIRST tier of frontlines introduced. No doubt that SE will "observe" how the community handles frontlines for a month or two, and then decide to put out more frontlines with higher ilvl syncs and other stat restrictions/liberties.

I'm really hoping Frontlines gather enough support so that this becomes more of a development priority. If this is as fun as it looks, I don't know if I'll be able to wait another year to get another one!

[Nalien]

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...1db2da455c74e7

Completely off topic, but am I the only one who wants to wander around Frontlines, rather than actually participate at first? Looks like such an amazing zone that you potentially wont get to see all of unless you change Grand Company and lose your Rank (which means nothing apparently, so whatever). Maybe matches will end up so one sided that we can jump around enemy camps and kill them as they respawn though. Damn that zone looks nice though.