Protesting Frontlines

[Menriq]

I mentioned it literally four posts up, and I think somewhere in another thread a few times.

If you are referring to post #115, that is just saying the same thing I am. What I am asking is that those who want Morale removed to make it a level playing field haven't made an argument (that I saw, which is what I wanted to know where the post was) about how removing PvP gear but leaving the AP is a level playing field. Sorry if I didn't get across clearer with my original post.

[Kantei]

Long Thread to catch up on.

At this point, I'm going assume most here know of my event "Friendlies".

I'm going to approach this topic from two view points: Me as a pug match PvPer, who uses tiered gear in that mode, and me, the community organizer who forces item level caps on every event we run.

I enjoy pug PvP, spent nearly 6 months grinding out PvP and ignoring PvE because I enjoy PvP so much. But I can tell if my team is going to win or lose before the match even starts. How? I know all the hard core PvPers, what they look like, and who they group up with. Next we take which side got which bots into account, and then finally, I check everyone's gear. The match is usually decided before it even begins. After 3k matches in 6 months, that is what Pug PvP is to me, simple math stacked one way or another.

It can sometimes be fun. Most of the time it's a chore, and rarely do I ever see real team work in pug matches.

Then there is my event, Friendlies.

Until 2-3 weeks ago, we had three modifiers that decided what gear everyone can use.

Does everyone have PvP gear? No, See PvE rules.
Does everyone have i90 PvE? Yes? Run PvE rules. No? See naked rules.

If it came to naked rules(which our event ended up being 80% of the time). Everyone was instructed to take off all clothing that provided beneficial stats. Vanity/crafting was still allowed.

Naked rules made all players involved between ilvl 14-16. Just about everyone in my link shell, would request naked rules even if everyone had i90 sets, because it was what we found to be the most balanced rule set we tried. Plus they were having fun making "Friendlies" vanity sets for i14 PvP.

Out of about 300 players I received feed back from on "Friendlies" about 5 preferred PvE rules over naked, mainly because they had i115 weapons and them putting up 40k damage versus the 15-30k others in i90 were putting up.

In situations where an i60 and an i108 would show up to the event, the i108 would suggest we run PvE since only 1 person fell below the requirements. If they complained after I told them to stick to the rules, I would make an exception for both team.

He gets to wear what ever he wants, if I get to wear what ever I want.

He would equip 108 PvE, I would wear a mix of i90/i100 PvP. Each team had 1 stacked member. I would rush their i108 player, kill him, then steamroll the i14 members.

After the match, I simply said "This is what gear melting looks like, lemme know when you want naked rules." Never seen a try hard last more than 2 rounds without saying naked was fairer, and here is the key, more fun.

SE seems to be implementing the answer I found a while ago when I wanted to make PvP more accessible and after nearly 600 matches of running a similar rule set for front lines in Wolves Den, I can say this for sure. The new way is way better, I am pissed to not have 6 months worth of work not count in a PvP mode. But I rather have fun versus gear melting noobs trying to learn PvP. And as stated before my i100 gear doesn't help me against i100 players. Morale, PvP gear. So it really just boils down to team play and positioning, instead of stacking the math in one way or another.

While I still find no morale a slap in the face(if it ends even being the case), I have to say after running a very similar style of PvP. It the superior model. I would trust SE on this for the sake of your own enjoyment and better matches all around.

[Menriq]

I keep reading the gear gap across all the different threads. What I haven't seen (or if I have missed it, I apologize and please let me know where the post is) is the discrepancy in AP available to a R40 vs a person stepping into PvP for the first time and how that is a "level playing field".

[Kantei]

Gonna say it again, I've played FFXIV's Wolves den with official rules. And I've also tried it with an ilvl cap.

ilvl cap and no PvP gear is the superior of the two. I put 6 months into my PvP gear. Still rather front lines be fun, over me melting under geared players.

[Menriq]

Gonna say it again, I've played FFXIV's Wolves den with official rules. And I've also tried it with an ilvl cap.

ilvl cap and no PvP gear is the superior of the two. I put 6 months into my PvP gear. Still rather front lines be fun, over me melting under geared players.

Even if everyone is naked, how are you handling the discrepancy in AP points? Are you forcing them to reset all their points? I guess what I'm asking is if, if you have one group who is all r40, and one group is all r1, and all other variables being equal, you still have an advantage on one side.

[Kantei]

Nalien, Wolves Den is only short if the teams are mismatched. Some of have been in PvP matches that featured 2 limit breaks from 1 team.

If you think a short cool down is less important in a shortergame mode over a longer one. I'm not sure we can have an proper conversation about this.

The length of the match matters not. Because the damage rotations still end up the same regardless of the time of theatch. I.e. you can only do so much damage in 6 mins.

I've played over 600 matches with an ilvl cap. After the first 50 we stopped focusing on ranks/ability balance, because after we removed gear discrepancies, we realized they didn't need to focus on AP variance.

Making morale useless, and boosting under geared players, is the exact same thing. There is no difference.

[Nalien]

Nalien, Wolves Den is only short if the teams are mismatched. Some of have been in PvP matches that featured 2 limit breaks from 1 team.

And most matches are mismatched. I have been in some long matches before, but they're incredibly rare if you actually queue rather than setting up matches. When you're playing with friends in your own little bubble, sure matches will be longer and more enjoyable, but Duty Finder matches simply are not like that.

If you think a short cool down is less important in a shortergame mode over a longer one. I'm not sure we can have an proper conversation about this.

Shorter cooldowns are next to worthless, when the majority of your matches don't go over three minutes. You're setting up your own matches against friends, that results in an even pairing which prolongs matches. Again, most matches are not like that, so for most matches, the cooldown reduction is worthless. I'm not going to set AP in that reduction when my matches don't last two minutes, let alone three. I will almost always set it in something that provides an instant bonus that will end the match faster.

The length of the match matters not. Because the damage rotations still end up the same regardless of the time of theatch. I.e. you can only do so much damage in 6 mins.

I'm really not sure what your group is putting AP on, but in a six minute match with recasts dropped on one said, and no AP on the other, that is a very real difference. One side gets all those abilities twice, the other gets them once. I'm not even got to calculate the amount of additional DPS and mitigation that would provide, it should just be plainly apparent to everybody. If one side has AP, one side doesn't, and the match exceeds five minutes, then the difference those recast traits provide is very real.

I'm really not sure what to say to you if you don't think that isn't unbalanced. One person can use their skills twice, the other can only use them once. That is a very obvious advantage, which really should be being treated the same as Morale, all things considered. Regardless of the effect, one side is getting a very clear advantage over the other.

People seem to be against giving PvE players a boost of Morale to even out players and make Morale less of a deciding factor, yet they seem to be fine with AP offering a similar advantage. I really don't get it. People are practically demanding Morale be gone to level the playing field, yet they're fine with leaving something in which by its very nature gives a small advantage to players. Honestly, I don't know what to make of it. Either you want a level playing field, or you don't. If the bonus a difference in AP provides is so minor, why are people against Morale so much? Why out right remove it when you could just make it so the difference between Morale is no more as powerful as a difference in AP? Why does it have to go, when they could just rebalance it closer to something we're all apparently fine with?

Your trying to argue against me, but now your arguing your own points.

Giving morale to players without PvP armor, means they still have one more substat than you.

Taking morale out of front lines, means they have 1 more substat than you.

Read my earlier posts; I'm suggesting a Morale buff that puts you around i65, which puts you at a slight disadvantage, even with the additional stat. I also suggested adjustments to Morale in general, and the progression of Rank/Marks, to facilitate a less annoying grind/advantage.

Either way, at this point your suggested fix isn't better than SE's. Arguing against AP but for Morale is.....just a spiteful conversation...think I'm done here O.o

Don't mistake my intent. I'm not arguing against AP and for Morale here. I'm simply asking; Why is an AP advantage allowed, and a Morale one not? I'm not arguing we shouldn't have AP, but keep Morale, I'm simply wondering why one advantage is allowed and another not. It is a genuine question aside from the debate of Morale.

People who are against Morale, apparently in any form since they disagree with any suggestion that would adjust Morale, claim to be against it because it provides a level playing field. OK, I can understand that. The thing is though, a level playing field, by its very definition, should be level. How then, is a difference in AP being allowed? Why is nobody against AP? Why are you defending AP?

It does not allow a level playing field, that's just simple maths. If I have AP and you don't, then I have an advantage. In a 15 minute match, I get to use my abilities 5 times, you get to use them 3 times, how is that level? I'm firing of skills more often. My skills have greater potency. That is an advantage. That is something I have, that my opponent does not. That is a text book case of one side having an advantage, the very thing we are apparently happy to see the back end of Morale for.

Is it because it isn't a significant advantage? I mean, I see it as quite significant, since I'm quite literally getting more uses out of PvP skills than my opponent (while my team is getting hit with Full Swings effect once, I'm hitting their team with it twice), but I wont disagree if you say it's insignificant. Point is, it is still an advantage. We are not on the glorious level playing field the removal of Morale promises if someone has an advantage. If it's OK because it's insignificant, then why are people so against any adjustment to Morale?

I think I might finally understand how to explain something to you Nalien. Hopefully this might make sense so you understand the other side.

A pvp stat enhances your innate damage AND your innate defense. Every ability and auto attack you give and receive benefits from it. This means taking less dmg, giving more and being easier to heal. All in one uber stat! It's also usually an exponential increase,the more you have the better it gets. Now imagine in one year, two years time how much morale will be in gear? It's always on, 100% uptime means it has a higher weight than any other upgrade to abilities, cool downs or other things.

Reducing one abiliites cool down by 2 minutes? Not anywhere near as good is it? That's why the increases to abilities and stuff are good advancements and morale isn't.

Oh, I understand that it's potentially not as big an advantage, my point is that it is an advantage though.

From my position it just seems incredibly hypocritical to go around praising the removal of Morale in creating a level playing field, while simultaneously being absolutely OK with another form of advantage. I mean, I've commonly been suggesting changing Morale and leveling the gap with boosts, to make it much less of an advantage, but that apparently doesn't matter. PvP gear and stats are just innately bad, no matter how you try to work them, but traits are perfectly fine. Again, it comes off as very hypocritical. It seems that literally no suggestion I make for Morale can change peoples minds because it would "be unfair and give players an advantage", but at the same time we're all perfectly fine with there actually being an advantage with traits. So what is it; Are we against having advantages or not?

As for the persistence and progression of Morale;

Firstly, the additional stats from traits aren't persistent? Morale could be exactly the same as them, I'd actually rather see them removed and Morale replace them in potency.
Secondly, if they even bother bringing PvP gear beyond i100, they can just do the same as what I've already suggested; in a i100 PvP event, provide a Echo type buff for players with no Morale.

They probably shouldn't raise PvP gear anymore though, and that probably seems against everything I've said previously about progression keeping the PvP community alive, which I guess it is, but once you've been doing PvP, once you've obtained those Ranks and gear, you're in. If you go out and earn a toy (in this case gear/AP) you're going to want to play with it; that's part of the reason people are even upset about their Morale doing nothing. Rather than continuing to raise the ranks and adding new gear, they should instead just focus on new game modes and new Jobs, that partly adds a new reason to grind (who doesn't want their Ninja to be the bat man?). Progression should simply be there to initially draw people in and get them invested. Once they're invested there is little need for it.

Just for a reference here, I remember a time in that "other" game (WoW) where a fight between equally geared players would be measured in minutes....and a fight between a geared player and someone purposefully going in with NO pvp gear to illustrate how broken resilience was lasting maybe 7 seconds. Yes, a skilled pvp player with no gear who literally lasted less than 10 seconds who when geared could make anyone work for a kill. That's not even in the same universe as a cool down reduction is it?

What about this example means they cannot adjust and rebalance Morale? I said it before, but it really does seem like nothing could redeem it in peoples eyes; I could suggest making it so 100 Morale is equal to +1 Defense and +1 Auto-attack potency, and it would still be bad. Meanwhile, if my team gets an additional 10% damage on your healer because I put AP in Full Swing and your team has no AP, that's fair.

If Resilience is broken, if Morale is broken, I'd fix them or throw them out completely. I said it before, but Morale can either work in Wolves' Den and Frontlines, or it can be removed completely. I'd actually argue Morale is more of an issue in Wolves' Den than it could ever be in Frontlines, just because of how the numbers will balance out with Frontlines.

I guess people see morale as bad because it does everything. It's a "wonder stat". Nothing else in game does as much as it does. It makes everything better. And even if you made it so 100 points translated to +1 after so many patches and gear upgrades you get to the point you have 5000 morale. Stat inflation is an argument for another thread though lol. People kind of expect super stats and huge gear gaps in arena purely cause the ranked stuff is a lot of e-peen bragging on who's best. I wouldn't care if they got rid of it totally though and changed the existing gear to have a different stat on it.

May as well have it here, since we're just editing (<3 you daily limit).

Since it's a wonder stat, you having it is immediately offset by me having it as well. The stat is void in such a scenario; if we have equal Morale, there is no difference. Likewise, if we don't have equal Morale, but just a small difference, the stat is far less effective. Stats like Morale only become a problem when there is a significant difference in two peoples amounts; when one person has a lot, and another has none. Balance it around that concept and just go "If you have Morale below this amount, we'll give you a boost", like I've suggested. For Frontlines that would currently mean; i90/100 PvP capped down to i80, i70 PvP, and i80 PvE given an i65 amount of Morale. That difference in Morale might be too much, but in that case you just rescale it so that it isn't. Ideally it should be no different than boosting your stats with AP, since that is something we all seem to be fine with.

[zulu_kulu]

Don't mistake my intent. I'm not arguing against AP and for Morale here. I'm simply asking; Why is an AP advantage allowed, and a Morale one not? I'm not arguing we shouldn't have AP, but keep Morale, I'm simply wondering why one advantage is allowed and another not. It is a genuine question aside from the debate of Morale.

People who are against Morale, apparently in any form since they disagree with any suggestion that would adjust Morale, claim to be against it because it provides a level playing field. OK, I can understand that. The thing is though, a level playing field, by its very definition, should be level. How then, is a difference in AP being allowed? Why is nobody against AP? Why are you defending AP?

the reason why they defend AP , but shame morale is quite simple :they do not realize yet how truly important aps are. most players tries to max out their pvp skills before hitting their traits, but i assure once FL comes out, you will hear how "ap is "unbalanced" and needs to be either fully maxed out or restricted to base level in FL. see all these people who doesnt believe this clearly never maxed out their traits and used it in the 30/40 queues. go ahead guys and just do this, i assure you you will see the very clear and overwhelming advantage of AP.just today, i went on a winning streak in the 30s/40s ques just using my mnk,war (not mrd) and smn with just their main trait (on in the war case full str) maxed out and hot hell did the range dps and healer melted.if FL is truly supposed to be a "easy going everyone is equal" battlefield then AP do need to be fully maxed or restricted to base level. also materia need to be cancel out also due the fact you are getting a little bit more stats then everyone else. just make everything completely identical and equal and let skill alone be the determining factor.

[Kantei]

Not worth responding to most of that..

3k matches. 600 in my bubble. I've seen matches last 30 mins in 30s, 40s, and 50's. Inside and outside the bubble.

The difference is I have the bubble O.o. So your making up supposed situations and talking about the imbalance of them.

While a person who has been in the situation, and has tested it out over the course of 2 months, is telling you flat out AP difference account for very little if gear is balanced. There are three skills where having 1-2 upgrades are on them are insane, but low ranks just up grade the best upgrades first O.o

You go on to argue about how I don't think one person having half cool down versus not half cool down makes me an insane person ?

Not sure why you shifted the conversation, but you said fast cool downs were less effective in wolves den. Because the rounds are short. My point was and still is...it affects them both equally. All it does is determine DPS/Mitigation.

Don't warp me debunking your statement of AP difference being more apparent in one mode versus the other into me making another statement lol.

Your trying to argue against me, but now your arguing your own points.

Giving morale to players without PvP armor, means they still have one more substat than you.

Taking morale out of front lines, means they have 1 more substat than you.

Your trying to argue against AP differences but for keeping morale? To be very specific, anyone with even a little analaysis skills can see this reeks of spite and hurt feelings.

So without slinging insults, or making up supposed situations about my event or what sort of major imbalance AP variance causes.

Don't make it about me not knowing what I am talking about this time nailene.

I've pugged PvP from day 1 to now: Double Rez/barrage/blm days, the decent "golden era", the death of good PvP, and even PvP today, pugging right now(wait 17min, average wait time less than 5 mins.)

I had multiple matches this week in pug matches that last to LB. At 34+, it may as well be a closed circuit bubble, it's always the same 30 people, we know each others habits, matches can go on for a bit.

Either way, my event still tested this. And it applies to both wolves den and front lines, because it affects damage/mitigation.

The results are still the same. If the gear is the same, AP, isn't that much of an issue. And with the new update, it's even less of an issue. The big key moves that really change things get upgraded first now, most of the other upgrades, are accents O.o. There are few skills I actually max out. Low level players learn about things quick, they get told every little thing they do wrong after each match

Either way, at this point your suggested fix isn't better than SE's. Arguing against AP but for Morale is.....just a spiteful conversation...think I'm done here O.o

[Rawk]

Snip

3k matches, but aren't you the one that sets up those "friendlies"? It's easy to rack up a ton of matches that way and its borderline win-trading.

You go way out of your way to create a "easy" and "fun" environment for new pvpers, and although commendable, it actually does more harm than good. We're not here to ease babies into a competitive style play, we're here to play against other players in direct competition. Gear, abilities, and skill should all come into play. To ease newer players in there make it easier to grab pvp gear & ranks.

I wouldn't be caught dead in a friendly, because it's probably filled with crappy players, half-a$ pvpers, and a few skilled that get held back by the rest of their team, this is how I imagine frontlines will be without gear.