NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Exstal]

If Thief does come, it won't be from Rogue. It's as simple as that, really. You need a fundamentally different gameplay style so that it doesn't play the same as Ninja. It's really irrelevant how much one wants to say Thief (as a job) would play different from Ninja if it came from Rogue. Given how, for example, Gladiator / Paladin is 80% GLA/20% PLD and even that 20% is only for a few skills. The challenge is making that 20% so drastically different for two jobs.

Ruling out Thief is effectively the same as ruling out Red Mage, or Scholar, or any of the Jobs people could say are "too similar" or "don't bring enough".

This is simply not true. Look. Thief from Rogue would just be a DPS class. What is Ninja? A DPS class that is heavily invested in Rogue. So how would you make it different? Answer: You can't with the limited job skills we have now (50 cap).

Why add new Tanks or Healers? They'll fundamentally be the same, just with a different name, look and flavour to their skills.

For a different playstyle. That's the only reason you had new classes/jobs. Based on this logic, there is no reason to have Paladin and Warrior. You only need 1 person to take hits.

Why add any new DPS? What is Samurai going to do that Lancer doesn't already? Wield a different weapon? Just give Lancer a Yari type weapon and save the development time, or will Gil Toss suddenly work in XIV?

Again, play style difference. Samurai won't use jump, probably have a move set revolving around their iconic weapon type, probably. Then, it might even be our pseudo-evasion tank. This comparison is poor.

Why add Blue Mage? It'll just be doing magic damage like Black Mage. Blue Mage actually has more issues than Thief would, since the spell learning mechanic would require much more development time. Just slap some Blue Mage gear for Thaumaturge and tell everyone to pretend Fire is a generic Blue Mage skill.

You're right. Why add Blue Mage? There's no reason to add it aside from some people wanting it. Cool. There are classes that I want but unlikely to happen, just gotta deal with it.

No need to add any new Jobs for that matter, just tell everyone to "pretend" that the existing Jobs are the ones they want. Want Geomancer? Pretend Conjurer is Geomancer. Want Ranger? Pretend Archer is Ranger. Want Beastmaster? Pretend Arcanist charms Squirrels. If these examples sound absurd, then good. They are. Just like telling people to pretend Ninja is Thief is.

I think you get the reoccurring theme here; different play style.
-Want Geomancer? Wait for the development team to make a class that uses Geomancy.
-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills
-Want Beastmaster? See if development team even cares to put it in

No one is saying Ninja is Thief. No one even thinks like that. The argument is really, really simple. Thief, if implemented, can only come a long time down the road, when there are sufficient job skills to sufficiently differentiate jobs from each other so that the class isn't the driving force. However, if you choose to ignore this part then you have no place arguing in favour of two jobs stemming from same base class because you're being willfully ignorant of the FFXIV class system.

SCH manages to be quite different from SMN with only 5 skills.

ACN (DPS) => SMN (DPS) / SCH (Heal)

Different roles have different focuses. Compare SCH DPS to SMN DPS. What differences do they have? Fester and a DPS pet. What similarities? Everything else.

[Nalien]

No one is saying Ninja is Thief.

You're kidding, right? Plenty of people throughout this thread have been claiming that, since Ninja comes from Rogue, and Rogue "is" Thief, you can just play Ninja as Thief (with Glamours) and ignore the 5 Ninja skills. It's been a very common argument from team "No Thief!", actually...

Having Thief come off Rogue really isn't impossible either. We already know every Class will eventually have two Jobs, even if the developers don't drastically alter the system to allow that properly, something like Archer can have Bard and Ranger. Ranger would simply be pure DPS, while Bard throws in so support at the cost of DPS. Why could they not, for example, do the same thing with Ninja and Thief? Ninjitsu doesn't have to be offensive (in fact one of the most well known ones isn't), alternative you could take the old role Thief had very literally; stealing to help the party, and make Thief a semi-support Job. Instead of stealing gear, potions and items, it could simply work a different way, while still maintaining the steal motif. If you take Ninja as the semi-support role, then it's actually in a better position than Bard already; 3 Songs does not a Bard make, but 3 skills to make combinations to make Ninjitus? That's potential for a lot of Ninjitsu from just 3 skills.

You'll probably disagree with Archer getting Ranger though, since Archer already has Rangers skills. Because it's not like Conjurer has White Mages skills already; first skill that comes to mind when I think of White Mage is Cure, at least.

Best way I think though, is to make Ninja a pure DPS, and Thief a semi-support Job, and they can do that easily with a Steal/Use mechanic. First skill could be Steal, which provides you with a unique effect based on the rarity of what you stole, and the enemy, it could even be detrimental. Next skill is Use, which lets you give that effect to the target. Very similar to my earlier suggestion, but much simpler. The other skills, like Paladin and White Mage etc., could just be generic MMO skills. You could still give them a Thief style twist though; an ability that converts the status effect into "Gil" (you sell it) which you then throw at the enemy, seeing as Gil Toss can never decide if its a Thief or Samurai skill.

exept no, thief will never come out, pointless to talk of it for age... why? because steal is not doable into FF14. you can argue and say, yes but they can steal stats for help the team.... how it will work?
some example: you steal VIT from a boss, if is fixed number, on some fight it will be pointless, if it's a % it will be overpowered on monster with high hp pool. and who say steal means you have it. if you steal this VIT and the stats come back, the hp will still be lost... why steal more than one time?

I was thinking... Well, I've already posted how I'd think Steal could work in a MMO. Several times now.

Don't let that stop you strawmaning a pathetic VIT Steal mechanic in place of what I've suggested, though.

the example about ranger/archer, conjurer/white mage is soo silly.

How so? The majority of White Mages spell list comes from Conjurer, not White Mage. If you say Ranger can't come off Archer because Archer has Rangers skills, then the same should be true of Conjurer and White Mage. Fact of the matter is, even if the Class has it's skills, they can still add a Job to it, because once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

To quote Exstal;

-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills

Want White Mage? Define it first because Conjurer currently has their main skills.

[silentwindfr]

snips

exept no, thief will never come out, pointless to talk of it for age... why? because steal is not doable into FF14. you can argue and say, yes but they can steal stats for help the team.... how it will work?
some example: you steal VIT from a boss, if is fixed number, on some fight it will be pointless, if it's a % it will be overpowered on monster with high hp pool. and who say steal means you have it. if you steal this VIT and the stats come back, the hp will still be lost... why steal more than one time?

that the main trouble of the thief, it's nice in 1 player rpg... but the thief of FF series can't be used in mmorpg, because all they have is stealing! is not enough for make a jobs! a jobs need more deepth. indeed right now we only have 5 skill as jobs class, but what will happend when the level cap will be raised? maybe we will only get jobs skill.

the example about ranger/archer, conjurer/white mage is soo silly.

[Nalien]

that the main trouble of the thief, it's nice in 1 player rpg... but the thief of FF series can't be used in mmorpg, because all they have is stealing! is not enough for make a jobs! a jobs need more deepth. indeed right now we only have 5 skill as jobs class, but what will happend when the level cap will be raised? maybe we will only get jobs skill.

You mean like all Dragoon had was Jumping?

That didn't stop the developers giving Dragoon four Jumps and a move that enhances Jumps, I'm sure it wont stop them implementing Thief, either.

To be fair, they aren't saying Ninja is Thief. But Rogue is, but I guess since all classes are jobs, they are indirectly saying it.

Actually, some of them literally were. I specifically remember someone telling me to just play Ninja and pretend its Thief.

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Did you just tell me it's not possible because Ranger would be overpowered, and then suggest how to prevent Ranger from being overpowered? Thanks... I guess...

So basically make Thief as needed as Bard because of support. Cool. It still won't change the gameplay difference between itself and Ninja because your rotations are almost always based on how your class plays and not the job.

Thief Steals to provide buffs.
Ninja does hand combinations to spit out Ninjitsu.
In between they both use the same combos.

Is that really any different from Scholar and Summoner? I mean, sure loads of Scholars are trash and never touch Bio once they hit 30, but when I play Summoner and Scholar, the play styles are pretty similar except Summoner uses Fester/Ruin in place of healing spells.

Don't misrepresent my statement. There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage. Now, nothing's impossible but it's not like devs have a whole lot of time to bring jobs that would be redundant so quickly. Bring out other wanted classes that need to fill the void first then we can backtrack to other things.

So what? You make it sound like Power Surge, Spineshatter Dive, Elusive Jump, Dragonfire Dive, Hallowed Ground, Spirits Within, Shield Oath, Sword Oath, Dragon Kick, One Ilm Punch, Fists of Fire, Shoulder Tackle, Rock Breaker, Infuriate, Steel Cyclone, Unchained, Inner Beast, Defiance, Battle Voice, Rain of Death, Benediction, Divine Seal, Presence Of Mind, Manawall, Apocatastasis, Convert, Enkindle, Spur, Tri-disaster, Fester, Lustrate, Sacred Soil, Leeches, Succor, Adloquium, Eos, and Selene are all classic abilities related to their Jobs.

They're not. I've said it before; Jobs only add a few classic skills, the majority are generic MMO skills. Most of the ones on that list people will recognize as being related to the Job will be from XI and I don't include them as classics because one game doesn't make for a classic skill, not matter how long we may have played that same game. They can do the exact same thing with Ranger. Eagle Eye Shot. There we go, Ranger has one recognizably Ranger skill. Same as Warrior.

As for bringing "needed" classes first... What needed classes? Rogue/Ninja is literally only getting added now to fill a stealth mechanic in PvP. The game has all the needed classes. Strictly speaking we don't need another Tank class few people will place, or another healer class. Not to mention, secondary Jobs require far less work to implement than additional Classes. Throw in; Marauder > Dark Knight, Pugilist > Dancer, Archer > Ranger, Conjurer > Geomancer, and that's four classic Jobs to please fans for very little work.

And finally, they don't have to bring every job into the game.

As if that's going to stop people asking for them or expecting them.

I'm truly surprised you're still arguing with the people who keep touting, "People who want thief just want a name change, herp derp."

Isn't it obvious by now they're either ignorantly or intentionally ignoring your arguments? There have been pages addressing their points, they manage to make ONE post that isn't, "You just want a name change! It wouldn't add anything!", and then go right back to their circular argument.

I blame SE for making me wait for FATEs, though the fact that this isn't getting anywhere is why I've taken to editing my posts, rather than wasting my daily allowance of posts (why is that a thing again?).

[LoLo]

It would be nice if we could get a Devs to confirm if there are no plans to add a Thief Job into the game because of the Rogue class existing.


Is the Rogue class the FFXIV ARR's version of the Thief job describe in this link: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Thief_(Job)?


Is the Thief job ruled out of being added into FFXIV ARR because of lore reasons?


-----------------------------
Additional Questions I have that I would like answers to but don't mind if not to be answered:


Should people see the Ninja Job in FFXIV ARR as a Thief Job instead because the class that Ninja job comes from is named Rogue?


Why do city states like Limsa allow Pirates to roam freely and even participate in army campaigns but Thieves are not allow to be in the city?

Re-posting my questions for the devs.

[Airget]

Re-posting my questions for the devs.

It's the Stigma, you have to think about it,you have a guild called the "Thieves Guild" the city-people are going to be like "oh so now we're gladly allowing adventuerers to learn how to steal my hard earned gil and product what kind of leader would allow sucha guild to be formed in the first place. How dare these foreign people come to our land, take our goods, take our hospitality and then spit it back in our face by providing others with the means and knowledge of stealing even more from us. How ungrateful are these homeless foreigners to seek refugee into our nation only to forsake us with such a guild".

Does that help at all? Maybe it makes more sense when you think of it from the logical sense of the townspeople looking at this new guild formed by a foreigner that came into the land offering nothing more than the promise of her peoples work ethics.

The story for Rogue will most likely capitalize on the idea of them being looked down upon because of their name and history as they try to attempt to make a good name for themselves to show them that they are no longer the crooked thieves from the past, now using their skills to help fight the empire and train others in their ways to show them how much they have changed.

[Jynx]

It's the Stigma, you have to think about it,you have a guild called the "Thieves Guild" the city-people are going to be like "oh so now we're gladly allowing adventuerers to learn how to steal my hard earned gil and product what kind of leader would allow sucha guild to be formed in the first place.

That would make alot of sense....until you see that Limsa Lominsa has the MARAUDERS guild that is pretty much a front for pirates....

[Exstal]

You're kidding, right? Plenty of people throughout this thread have been claiming that, since Ninja comes from Rogue, and Rogue "is" Thief, you can just play Ninja as Thief (with Glamours) and ignore the 5 Ninja skills. It's been a very common argument from team "No Thief!", actually...

To be fair, they aren't saying Ninja is Thief. But Rogue is, but I guess since all classes are jobs, they are indirectly saying it.

Having Thief come off Rogue really isn't impossible either. We already know every Class will eventually have two Jobs, even if the developers don't drastically alter the system to allow that properly, something like Archer can have Bard and Ranger. Ranger would simply be pure DPS, while Bard throws in so support at the cost of DPS. Why could they not, for example, do the same thing with Ninja and Thief?

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Ninjitsu doesn't have to be offensive (in fact one of the most well known ones isn't), alternative you could take the old role Thief had very literally; stealing to help the party, and make Thief a semi-support Job. Instead of stealing gear, potions and items, it could simply work a different way, while still maintaining the steal motif. If you take Ninja as the semi-support role, then it's actually in a better position than Bard already; 3 Songs does not a Bard make, but 3 skills to make combinations to make Ninjitus? That's potential for a lot of Ninjitsu from just 3 skills.

So basically make Thief as needed as Bard because of support. Cool. It still won't change the gameplay difference between itself and Ninja because your rotations are almost always based on how your class plays and not the job.

You'll probably disagree with Archer getting Ranger though, since Archer already has Rangers skills. Because it's not like Conjurer has White Mages skills already; first skill that comes to mind when I think of White Mage is Cure, at least.

Of course I'd disagree with Archer getting Ranger.

Best way I think though, is to make Ninja a pure DPS, and Thief a semi-support Job, and they can do that easily with a Steal/Use mechanic. First skill could be Steal, which provides you with a unique effect based on the rarity of what you stole, and the enemy, it could even be detrimental. Next skill is Use, which lets you give that effect to the target. Very similar to my earlier suggestion, but much simpler. The other skills, like Paladin and White Mage etc., could just be generic MMO skills. You could still give them a Thief style twist though; an ability that converts the status effect into "Gil" (you sell it) which you then throw at the enemy, seeing as Gil Toss can never decide if its a Thief or Samurai skill.

This is the same problem as Ranger / Bard foolishness. Ninja will be balanced against other DPS (DRG/MNK/BLM/SMN/BRD) while THF's support skills have to be good enough that it allows them to compete in DPS. How do you determine that? Make those skills either really strong and give a very good raid increase.

How so? The majority of White Mages spell list comes from Conjurer, not White Mage. If you say Ranger can't come off Archer because Archer has Rangers skills, then the same should be true of Conjurer and White Mage. Fact of the matter is, even if the Class has it's skills, they can still add a Job to it, because once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

To quote Exstal;

-Want Ranger? Define it first because Archer currently has their main skills

Want White Mage? Define it first because Conjurer currently has their main skills.

Don't misrepresent my statement. There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage. Now, nothing's impossible but it's not like devs have a whole lot of time to bring jobs that would be redundant so quickly. Bring out other wanted classes that need to fill the void first then we can backtrack to other things.

For example, let's see Dark Knight, Samurai, Red Mage, Geomancer and Dancer make an appearance before we go back and play with Thief (because Rogue/Ninja) and Ranger (because Archer/Bard). Doing it now is a waste of resources to have two of the same type of job that have nothing new to bring to the play style.

once again and I am tired of saying this; Jobs literally only exist to provide the name and iconic imagery.

And finally, they don't have to bring every job into the game.

On a side note; I'm stoked for Ninja. Monk is probably my second favourite class because of dual wield, and I can jump on people's head? Awesome.

Three Thief job ideas have been posted in this thread, that I've seen anyway.

I'll grant you 2/3 because the one by Nero is overpowered and worthless.

[Duelle]

Because if you did it that way, Ranger would be massively overpowered and be the only class that you play. Bard is balanced to against other DPS classes. So if you decide to add Ranger into the mix the Archer base class needs nerfs across to the board while simultaneously buffing Bard's job skills to make up for the deficit.

Not really. The devs never gave ARC channeled shots, and that's probably what would be given to RNG if that were to stem from Archer. Rangers could be more DoT-based or better AoE or something along those lines. Similarly to how Marksmanship hunters and Survival hunters are very different despite coming from the same base class.

There is no job skill that Ranger could get that Archer doesn't already have, whereas White Mage received Holy. Ranger's iconic skills; Aim, Barrage. What does Archer have as base skills? Aim, Barrage.

This is irrelevant because at the end of the day RNG/THF/whatever will be defined by its mechanics and role. I'd worry less about Barrage and more about how it would work and what type of design would make sense for them.

[EdwinLi]

This is irrelevant because at the end of the day RNG/THF/whatever will be defined by its mechanics and role. I'd worry less about Barrage and more about how it would work and what type of design would make sense for them.

I kind of picture Ranger as the Sniper type of Job in FF14 due to Ranger's role as the long range job of the FF series.

But that only my guess how they can design Ranger.