NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Gilraen]

People really want their cake and want to eat it, too... judging just from the video Square released the rogue class is a DD class. And the Ninja Job is a DD Job. Not unlike lancer/Dragoon or pugilist/Monk. This means it's got DD down pat. So what would you do with a Thief Job? Can't be a tank without drastically changing rogue through Job abilities. Could be support, but I have a feeling rogue will have that covered in all the Thief sort of ways, or maybe Ninja. Oh, before it's called out that Ninja is going to be a tank, Ninja was never a tank. Your one and only reference to Ninjas as tanks is actually a perversion of one line of their spells originally meant to keep them safe from aggro. That's it, just Utsusemi. Ninja in XI had no innate enmity generation as was present in the actual tank jobs.

[Wildsprite]

People really want their cake and want to eat it, too...

well yeah what is the point of getting cake and not eating it. I really hate when people use that stupid saying

Your one and only reference to Ninjas as tanks is actually a perversion of one line of their spells originally meant to keep them safe from aggro. That's it, just Utsusemi. Ninja in XI had no innate enmity generation as was present in the actual tank jobs.

to start with because XI had support jobs they didnt need the enmity generation, they could get it from Warrior with Provoke. they did get tanking emnity buildup abilities later.

to drive your point let me think. PLD is a tank class in XI and barely had any enmity buildup of their own till much later. the ones they did fell short of Provoke which is not even a PLD ability. this changed when NIN also got more of its own.


as for NIN being tank. they could do it easily

since you want to go on your little rants about what jobs were and werent in XI. technically RDM wasn't a healer and neither was SCH but the players used them for it. and also till they screwed with the RDM traits they could also effectivally tank.

this is a different game. my only gripe with it is one that has been brought up already. we have too many DPS already the DPS outnumber the tanks and healers by a pretty big margin. however they could easily announce more classes and jobs before the E3 is over or even wait and surprise us when 2.4 is released. we don't know what they will do. heck look at patch 2.28 it had a lot more than most were expecting in it and it wasnt even a major patch

[Lemuria]

as for NIN being tank. they could do it easily

since you want to go on your little rants about what jobs were and werent in XI. technically RDM wasn't a healer and neither was SCH but the players used them for it. and also till they screwed with the RDM traits they could also effectivally tank.

The difference here is that the job was always intended as a DPS, and was never intended to be a tank. Take away Utsusemi and they're a squishy mess, which is why several fights actually REQUIRED a Paladin tank because the mob would strip shadows instantly. Paladin could fit in almost any situation, Ninjas were a far more situational tank.

As for Red Mages, they had native healing skill and access to cure potency gear. They were also given additional tools to bolster their role as support, meaning they could take the role as a support healer on top of their basic enfeebling talents. Ninja was never given any enmity gear aside from a handful of pieces which were multi-class, unlike the 'real' tanks, Warrior and Paladin. It wasn't until long after they'd cemented themselves as dodge tanks that SE caved in and provided a few extra bonuses on their gear.

As for the laughable idea that they could 'do it easily', no they couldn't. Until later levels they were heavily reliant on a Thief's Trick Attack ability to hold aggro or Provoke spam. They could deal decent damage, but certainly not enough to hold off a Black Mage's nukes. And considering most geared for tanking, it reduced their DPS considerably, favouring HP and evasion. Later they had more tools at their disposal, but it's still exceptionally easy to rip aggro from a Ninja moreso than a Paladin simply because they don't have the enmity addition that real tanks get.

By that definition, every DPS should be tanks because damage generates enmity.
And perhaps you forgot that losing shadows actually make you lose enmity.

That addition was actually added at a later date, when they tried to discourage Ninja tanking. Before that, no enmity was lost from shadows, until something actually dealt damage to you.

[Ceons]

well yeah what is the point of getting cake and not eating it. I really hate when people use that stupid saying

"You can't have your cake and eat it too" It means you can either have a cake or eat it. If you eat it, then you no longer have the cake. So I think perhaps you have misunderstood this saying :P

[Grizzlebeard]

Your one and only reference to Ninjas as tanks is actually a perversion of one line of their spells originally meant to keep them safe from aggro. That's it, just Utsusemi. Ninja in XI had no innate enmity generation as was present in the actual tank jobs.

You either didn't play Ninja or FFXI in general because it's patently clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

Ninja had a number of Enmity-generating abilities such as Slow, Paralyze, Blind, and the Elemental Wheel. Lousy Ninja tanks would rely solely on Provoke for Enmity but like most things in that game if you wanted to be good you had to expend effort and Gil.

[Reynhart]

Ninja had a number of Enmity-generating abilities such as Slow, Paralyze, Blind, and the Elemental Wheel.

By that definition, every DPS should be tanks because damage generates enmity.
And perhaps you forgot that losing shadows actually make you lose enmity.

PLD is a tank class in XI and barely had any enmity buildup of their own till much later.

Shield Bash lvl15 : Approximately half the enmity of Provoke
Sentinel lvl 30: Same enmity as Provoke and doubles the enmity of every skills and spells for 30s, while reducing incoming damage and thus, enmity loss
Flash lvl37 : little less than Provoke
And, of course, a large amount of enmity generated via Curing.

It's far more than what Ninja had

[Grizzlebeard]

By that definition, every DPS should be tanks because damage generates enmity.

If said DPS jobs had damage avoidance/mitigation abilities such as Evasion/Parry at rank A- or two levels of Utsusemi then sure. Struggling to think of any aside from Dancer though right now, which I also used as a tank, maybe you could help out.

And perhaps you forgot that losing shadows actually make you lose enmity.

If you're trying to appear smart there you failed hard considering you lose way more Cumulative Enmity by taking Damage than you do from losing one shadow.

Cumulative Enmity Loss

Damage Taken: CE Loss = 1800 × Damage Taken ÷ Maximum HP
Taking damage while under the effect of Mana Wall : CE Loss = 180 per hit
Utsusemi Shadow Image Lost: CE Loss = 25
Being Enfeebled (Including Resists): CE Loss = 80

[Reynhart]

If said DPS jobs had damage avoidance/mitigation abilities such as Evasion/Parry at rank A- or two levels of Utsusemi then sure. Struggling to think of any aside from Dancer though right now, which I also used as a tank, maybe you could help out.

Yeah, I should have tanked on Corsair, Thief and Samurai too. Oh, and Monk for Guard. Or Puppetmaster for Evasion B with lots of Evasion Bonus.

[Grizzlebeard]

Yeah, I should have tanked on Corsair, Thief and Samurai too. Oh, and Monk for Guard. Or Puppetmaster for Evasion B with lots of Evasion Bonus.

Again, in trying to appear smart you're making yourself look a moron.

[Gilraen]

Again, in trying to appear smart you're making yourself look a moron.

I don't know, those are valid points. And yes, not only have I played XI, I'd also seen enough ninja tanks to know that I never wanted to be one. There always had to be someone ready to off-tank when their shadows were down. Always. I even tried ninja solo and... it's alot more work than when I played paladin. I have to envy AND feel sorry for people forced to tank as ninja in XI. Which is why I'm glad XIV's Ninja isn't falling into that trap.