NINJA and ROGUE confirmed

[Arkista]

Did I miss some info somewhere where did/does it show scout or does scout mean rogue and no I did not read much of the previous posts.

Yes its Rogue I screwed up the title, Didn't see the names on the pictures.

[Cynric]

Reynhart just let it go. They want to play thief as a job. Which probably will never happen anyway. Thief is a class here and named Rogue and performs the same role it does in most ff games, to turn into a Ninja or better class down the line. They can't accept that, however regardless of what we do or don't say, they will have to deal with it as it isn't going to change.

[Nero]

Thief is a class here and named Rogue and performs the same role it does in most ff games,

Nope, it does not. IT does the same way like Gladiator is the "iconic" PLD, Conjurer is the "Iconic" WHM and so on, it simply is not. May read the Names of the Japanese Classes and you will realize something; it is nothing more than a definition of the Weapon Type. Out of that will branch the Jobs, just like PLD, WAR, NIN and whatever else is out there.

You will never see SAM, BLU, RDM etc being a Class, since it just not fits the System of FFXIV. Regardless of THF being possible or not, Rogues IS NOT Thief. Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User. And for those who say Rogue does play like THF, can you link me to the Traits and Abilities of Rogue? Since you obviously know more than everyone else. As far as it was explained, Rogue is using Stuff like Poisons, which i can't remember being a Major-Trait of the THF Job..

Anyways.. this Discussion wont go anywhere...

Sidenote, quote from Yoshi ( recent interview click):

Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Thief, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

Interesting, isn't it? Yoshi is well aware of their own System and that Thief can't be a Class itself... so create out of that statement, whatever you like.

-Again, when SE explained why they are calling the class Rogue and not THF, they basically also implied that in their development minds, Rogue=another name for Thief. If this is true, then at least at this point, there is no future plan to include Thief as a potential job split off from Rogue.

Not really what SE said btw. They said Rogue's were original Thieves, so they lost their "specialization" over time.. guess what a Job is in FFXIV and branches from a "Weapon Type"? A specialization of a Class...

[Cynric]

That'd have to be a bit more recent as development style may have changed since then going by his more recent comment on naming the class thief but going with rogue instead.

Also the japanese naming thematic really has nothing to do with ours.

[Kinseykinz]

Nope, it does not. IT does the same way like Gladiator is the "iconic" PLD, Conjurer is the "Iconic" WHM and so on, it simply is not. May read the Names of the Japanese Classes and you will realize something; it is nothing more than a definition of the Weapon Type. Out of that will branch the Jobs, just like PLD, WAR, NIN and whatever else is out there.

You will never see SAM, BLU, RDM etc being a Class, since it just not fits the System of FFXIV. Regardless of THF being possible or not, Rogues IS NOT Thief. Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User. And for those who say Rogue does play like THF, can you link me to the Traits and Abilities of Rogue? Since you obviously know more than everyone else. As far as it was explained, Rogue is using Stuff like Poisons, which i can't remember being a Major-Trait of the THF Job..

Anyways.. this Discussion wont go anywhere...

Sidenote, quote from Yoshi ( recent interview click):

Also I do feel that scouting classes are lacking so I want to bring in Thief, Ninja and those that have to do with stealth. Also more casters like Blue Mage and Red Mage are something I would like to add.

Interesting, isn't it? Yoshi is well aware of their own System and that Thief can't be a Class itself... so create out of that statement, whatever you like.



Not really what SE said btw. They said Rogue's were original Thieves, so they lost their "specialization" over time.. guess what a Job is in FFXIV and branches from a "Weapon Type"? A specialization of a Class...

First let me address your second point as it was in response to me. The gist of what they were saying back and forth was that they opted to name it Rogue because they didn't like feel of Thief as it related to the lore of the game. The lore of the game is already leading up to the Rogue/Ninja class....it was basically the end of the 2.2 mainstoryline. Now if you want to pretend they were just meaning 'THF can't be a class, but down the road, expect to see the job' FINE. I cannot stop you. But if that was the reason they would have said something like 'We opted for the Name Rogue vs. other iconic Role titles in the series as we wanted to leave them open for possible introduction in the future/wanted to preserve their iconic look. This is NOT however what was said.

But to your Samurai, Redmage and crew points:

Yes, Yoshi'd like to add them.....buuuuut: look at how nutso people went over this, now lets for a moment ponder the introduction of RDM (I'm using RDM as the example because it's probably the most demanded, and most 'It has to be like this!' in most peoples minds which is part of the reason it'll be so damn hard to implement- IE forgive the tangent, RDM and how/will it become a Job isn't my point....my point is more 'what needs to be considered' when decided this job can be put in game but this one cannot...or at least, currently cannot. ):

First off. Lets talk about what this game actually allows:

Red Mage as you say, would be a Job Not a class.
Therefore, at level 50, it could ONLY have 5 specialized skills.

Also, it would have to be based on either 2 current classes in game, or 2 new classes....either way though, it would have access to the entire skillset of it's 'primary' class AND use that classes weapons.

So keeping this in mind, lets talk about what everyone really wants in a Red Mage:

Red Mage-FF early years, was a caster that could equip some heavier armor, use swords,staves etc and had access to both WHM/BLM magic books. However, while it could do a little bit of all of this, it couldn't do any of the top tier skills of any of these roles. Furthermore, it was very 'individualized' The way you built your RDM and geared it could be very different than how I built mine....which is WHY so many fell in love with this role even back in Final Fantasy's earliest days. You could run 4xRDM and have different skills/specialities. across ALL of them...and this was very rare at the time.

But FFXI influenced the 'RDM dreams' even more. Because when people talk about their FFXI days of RDM, they talk about solo-fights, and swords, and staffs, and main healing, and dding, and Convert, dual-wielding etc. The problem here is THIS game, doesn't allow for 1 party role to ever be that flexible. Hell if you really really looked at only RDM's skills from FFXI, and didn't account for all the cross-skills it could effectively use (from so many different subclass specs btw), you'd already be a little /disappoint. But still what people remember isn't 'RDM's skillset' they remember 'all the cool stuff I could do on RDM' But much of that relied on FFXI's Subjob system and cross skills, and how well they paired within the Red Mage toolkit, and when used well, could make some formidable builds.

But this game isn't a solo player game. So balance matters
And this game isn't based on the same subjob system/battle mechanics as FFXI.

So how is SE supposed to give people the Red Mage they want, when by this role's very nature the reason people loved it SOOOO much was it's flexibility.

For example:
What weapon should a Red Mage have?
-Sword?
-Staff?
-Scepter?
-Something new?

Already, there will be people going if it doesn't use a _________ it's not a RDM! Let's protest until they give it the 'proper' weapon.

But, let's say they make it's weapon be a sword (probably what most ppl expect)

Well currently, that means they'd have all the natural skills of a Gladiator.
-Shield Lob...for a RDM....Rampart? Doesn't sound very 'Magey'.

So most likely, RDM has to wait until at least a new class comes out, that uses swords and not so 'tanky'

Lets call said class 'Fencer' cause why the hell not?
-This would be a thin/pointy sword class so it'd fit the bill
-Also as a new class, it would be free to have it's own skillset (mages have 16-18ish skills on their classes atm)

- But New Problem:What 16 skills can you give this new class, that aren't represented by the existing classes AND support the sword/caster build.
Some would say 'Well we don't have En-spells for weapons' We could use those!. Okay, but how will that work in this game as elm. resistances are far different. Furthermore, Monk already has this going on in their own way as their Fists of Fire,Earth,Air =different buffs. So how do you make it that it's not really just like monk, or pointless (elm builds). And if they do something like give EN spells, that raise party speed/ slow mobs etc...is that okay enough with people? Or will that cause more 'SE why did you do this??!!'
Others would be like 'Dude, just give us DOTs and ENFEEBLES' Everyone knows that with some glaring (RDM specific btw) exceptions, that most of these are in game. So again, you run into the 'well if this CLASS can cast it and so can that one, how is that unique?' So this ave. probably doesn't work.
This goes on and on.

Even when you look at the job specifically, assuming they sorted out the class>Job problem: What are the 5 'must haves' for RDM
Dia/Gravity/Banish/Poison/Chainspell? Convert belongs to the BLM's so you can't have that in this game.

And then how do you suddenly make those 5 skills match up to a swordsmen role.

What subjob =RDM.

Is it CNJ? So they can heal/raise/Buff, but have limited DPS.
Is it ACN? SO they can heal/raise/Buff,but only gain utility skills as ACN's DoT's don't cross-class, m(eyeforeye,physic,virus etc) wouldn't they just kinda be like at gimp, petless SMN w/ a sword?
Is it THM? SO they can't heal or buff, but can't blow up stuff..as THMs list of cross-class skills is weak...or at least lacks DD spells (well you get bliz 2 yay).


And if they build from a mage class, and have the melee as the support, then does the weapon tick people off?

THIS is why RDM hasn't been added....because they need to figure out how to make it work, answer all those questions and give people as much as they can of RDM without making it either very weak and bland or OMG OP.


How this relates to THF:
THF in solo player games again, balance was less critical. Furthermore, how and when roles transitioned into other roles was more open.
In FFXI- had once again, the support of the subjob system to fill in it's gaps and weaknesses. Once again, like the RDM (although to a lesser degree) part of the nostalgia for THF isn't in it's natural skillset, but in the awesome things they were able to do via the subjob system.

So the biggest problem THF has in being implemented is:
-how does it even stand out enough as a solo job to warrant development. IE what does it offer from a gameplay perspective that other roles don't....and is this beneficial to the game/would it balance.
-of the 'iconic' skills it 'should' have, can these be implemented in a way that they wouldn't be either gimmicky, or FORCE 'everyone bring a THF!'

Samurai Has no such problems. It can easily be implemented as either a DD or Tank role, and keep most SAM fans happy. So it is reasonable to expect to see it in the near future.

But just because the Developer says 'I'm trying to introduce roles people have been asking about' doesn't mean it can/or will happen....or happen anytime soon. Even still, he listed 'types' of jobs...he didn't make specific promises...he was simply stating, yes I know there's interest in both 'stealthy' roles and 'hybrid caster' roles....the intent of that comment was NOT...I plan on adding these exact roles into the game. You might get 1, 2 or even all of them...but it's subject to development/lore and balance.

[MartaDemireux]

Rogues simply defines in the Japanese as "Dual Wield" User.

Just gotta nitpick that it is "Twinblade User" in Japanese. Twinblades are generally defined as a type of sword as opposed to a dagger (although sometimes daggers are incorporated depending on the game/show). As we've seen with their reveal they're going with the sword variant for FFXIV. Long, curved blades do not a dagger make.

From purely a weapons standpoint, with the addition of this new weapon type I'd say Thief would stand a greater chance to stem from Gladiator even if the gameplay of Twinblades could suit it better thematically. Gladiator gets the daggers which is unfortunate but true and Thief has historically been able to make use of shields/bucklers.

[Gilraen]

They are also pretty deluded in believing that a class ends at 30, which is completely bonkers given that classes keep gaining abilities up to level cap because the Jobs are equip items and not completely separate entities. If classes didn't then Bard wouldn't have Quelling Shots, Barrage, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Wide Volley or such traits as Enhanced Dexterity III, Enhanced Quick Knock, Increased Action Damage II, Enhanced Barrage or River of Blood. That's alot of stuff for a class that's, "tossed aside at level 30." What does Bard give, then? Slightly better stats, three songs, Rain of Death and a long recast song buff at the low cost of archer's wide-range multi-classing.

[Transmigration]

They are also pretty deluded in believing that a class ends at 30, which is completely bonkers given that classes keep gaining abilities up to level cap because the Jobs are equip items and not completely separate entities. If classes didn't then Bard wouldn't have Quelling Shots, Barrage, Blunt Arrow, Flaming Arrow, Wide Volley or such traits as Enhanced Dexterity III, Enhanced Quick Knock, Increased Action Damage II, Enhanced Barrage or River of Blood. That's alot of stuff for a class that's, "tossed aside at level 30." What does Bard give, then? Slightly better stats, three songs, Rain of Death and a long recast song buff at the low cost of archer's wide-range multi-classing.

UTILITY. A REASON FOR SOMEONE TO INVITE YOU TO A GROUP.

[LoLo]

People who usually say stop trying to make this game into FFXI, have never played it before. They hate the game out of ignorance. Adding a single job into this game doesn't equal making the game into FFXI. How can people who are not interesting in playing a Thief Job write a wall of text that makes no sense as to why Thief can't be added to this game? None of it is even logical. The weak reasoning of Thief not fitting into lore was just nothing but bull because there a Pirates freely walking around throught the city. There are scammers, dancers, and prositutes in Uldah and Limsa, Black magic/ hint of Necromancing as well is in Uldah (1.0 had tons of this). A main character in Uldah died during the storyline as well. But having thieves in this game is just so hard to imagine? Or is it just a lazy way to dismiss it without thinking hard enough?

The hate of adding Thief from the two people posting above all stems from them thinking having an additional DD job will prevent them from getting their future ques. Which will only be 2 weeks after any DD job ever gets released. They can't prevent Dark Knight, Samurai, Gunner, ect from coming so they still will have to deal with those ques. They don't have to play the job, but they are so concerned about other people playing it. What a sad outlook.

[Reynhart]

People who usually say stop trying to make this game into FFXI, have never played it before. They hate the game out of ignorance. Adding a single job into this game doesn't equal making the game into FFXI.

The problem is not really hating this game.
It's people who claim what a job HAVE TO be based on one time only FFXI concept. Like how BLM MUST have 6 elements, or PLD MUST have Cure IV.

As for Thief not fitting in the lore, saddly it's what the producer think and, as far as we know, he's in charge.