2.3 Frontline What do we know?

**Niroken** · 06-14-2014 03:02 AM

Originally Posted by Shake0615

That's been my argument this entire time. I couldn't care less if they toss out morale at this point, but it must be replaced with something that makes the gear earned in the Wolves' Den competitive. Otherwise every single piece of PvE gear of equal item level will be superior than xWolf gear in PvP. Either add in an extra stat or give meaningful set bonuses to pieces of PvP gear that only apply to Frontlines and the Wolves' Den.

I think that is a fair way of handling it. Although it looks to me like other people would rather PvP with a lead pipe while other players have a toothbrush, it's just so weird to me.

**Nalien** · 06-14-2014 03:06 AM

Originally Posted by Niroken

I think that is a fair way of handling it. Although it looks to me like other people would rather PvP with a lead pipe while other players have a toothbrush, it's just so weird to me.

I'd rather they fix PvP progression.

Make Wolves Den less of a grind.
Lock Frontlines behind a quest that requires R25.
New players enter Wolves Den, it's less of a grind so much more tolerable.
They rank up, obtain some Morale gear, then enter Frontlines.
Frontlines matches up the same way Wolves Den does, so teams are roughly equal in rank.

And that's to say nothing of Morale adjustments, but it gives PvP a very clear sense of progression that currently looks to be non-existent. The PvE equivalent would be if they let you enter Coil at Lv1. No, you had to level up you character and go through some trials to enter Coil, the same should be true for Frontlines. If they make the grind manageable it isn't even that big of an issue. The only reason we have this issue is because someone at SE refuses to adjust the grind in PvP.

Given the Frontlines news, I'm really not surprised they wont change it. It's a disturbing trend in XIV; All vanity related content is rarer than progression content. It's really no surprise that Animal Gear would be locked behind R40 for no other point that vanity (for the foreseeable future, at least). Odin and Behemoth? Check. Crafted vanity gear? Why does that need maps? Housing? Fledgling Apkallu is locked behind the ridiculous Sightseeing Log... I'd go on but I already made myself sad by reminding myself about my baby Apkallu that never will be.

**Niroken** · 06-14-2014 03:16 AM

Why does PvP need progression? It doesn't do much besides segregate the PvP player base and make it less appealing to new players.

**Shake0615** · 06-14-2014 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by Niroken

Why does PvP need progression? It doesn't do much besides segregate the PvP player base and make it less appealing to new players.

For the same reason that PvE needs progression: to keep people interested in content. No one farms Brayflox or Primals just for fun; they farm them for tomestones or gear drops to progress their character. PvP is the exact same.

**Ragecake** · 06-14-2014 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Shake0615

PvP is the exact same.

Speak for yourself! I would pvp because it's fun!

Of course there needs to be progression in pve: it's a pve oriented game.

**Shake0615** · 06-14-2014 03:38 AM

Originally Posted by Ragecake

Speak for yourself! I would pvp because it's fun!

Of course there needs to be progression in pve: it's a pve oriented game.

I PvP because it's fun as well, but part of that fun is making tangible progress on a gear treadmill. It gives me something to look forward to at the end of a match, that my time spent there is not only fun in the moment but there's a long term purpose behind it. You can't deny that the majority of MMOs on the market offer gear as a source of progression for both PvE and PvP because that's just how games are designed. And frankly I'm getting wearisome of the notion that "FFXIV is just different! It's a PvP-oriented game so there's no need to invest time in making progression for PvP!" It's ridiculous that anyone would hold the position that we should offer less content in an MMO. I'm all for making PvP accessible to all, but not at the cost of removing progression from the equation entirely!

Originally Posted by Ragecake

It'll more than likely be useful in future arenas and battlegrounds.

You may not be tired of their mantra "Please look forward to it!" but I am sick of it because it's a lame-ass attempt to dodge the community's concerns and not be held accountable for piss-poor implementation.

**Niroken** · 06-14-2014 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Shake0615

For the same reason that PvE needs progression: to keep people interested in content. No one farms Brayflox or Primals just for fun; they farm them for tomestones or gear drops to progress their character. PvP is the exact same.

When it comes to PvP the monsters get higher stats. In PvP everyone stays the same, because there is progression people are forced to grind to be able to compete with players who are better geared so that you are not at a disadvantage. PvE is rather scripted so once you know the patterns it becomes rather easy, PvP however is not as you are fighting against something with intelligence.

The progression of PvE is there to stretch the content farther because of the unintelligent nature of programmed encounters. FF14 is basically forcing PvE progression in a PvP atmosphere when, if done properly, PvP could stand alone fine. PvP can always add new arena styles and more game modes for variety (because the Wolves Den arena honestly looks boring and I expect more so after you play in it hundreds of times).

**Shake0615** · 06-14-2014 03:53 AM

Originally Posted by Niroken

When it comes to PvP the monsters get higher stats. In PvP everyone stays the same, because there is progression people are forced to grind to be able to compete with players who are better geared so that you are not at a disadvantage. PvE is rather scripted so once you know the patterns it becomes rather easy, PvP however is not as you are fighting against something with intelligence.

You make an excellent point and I won't deny that if poorly implemented (as is the case in this game) PvP progression can lead to a major gear gap. It's something has to be carefully balanced. But there are ways around this just as there are in PvE. For example, in Patch 2.2 (I believe) Darklight became accessible through random drops rather than by farming tomestones. That way people could do their dailies, get their gear drops AND farm tomestones for vendor purchasing. They didn't remove stats from the Allagan gear and level sync the new Coil encounters to deal with the gear disparity between new and veteran players. They brought the new people UP to speed rather than bringing the veterans DOWN to speed. Why is it that in PvP it's acceptable to bring the veterans down to the level of beginners when they could instead give the beginners better stepping stones to reach the high levels?

**Niroken** · 06-14-2014 05:55 AM

Originally Posted by Shake0615

They didn't remove stats from the Allagan gear and level sync the new Coil encounters to deal with the gear disparity between new and veteran players. They brought the new people UP to speed rather than bringing the veterans DOWN to speed. Why is it that in PvP it's acceptable to bring the veterans down to the level of beginners when they could instead give the beginners better stepping stones to reach the high levels?

They are bringing new players up to speed which is what Frontlines is, it's the stepping stone to Wolves Den. Wolves Den (Coil) was released before Frontlines (CT), you might have to wait for your Second Coil.

**Rin23** · 06-14-2014 03:37 AM

Originally Posted by Niroken

Why does PvP need progression? It doesn't do much besides segregate the PvP player base and make it less appealing to new players.

No chest in coil ! you will see if someone go in coil then .

Thread: 2.3 Frontline What do we know?

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