Thread: Fragen zu [dev1026] Änderungen zur Inbesitznahme von Gegnern

Moin Moin

Erstmal danke für diese tollen News heut. Ich freu mich wahnsinnig auf das neue Claimsystem. Das ist genau so wie ich es mir immer gewünscht hab in 14

Nun allerdings kamen ein paar fragen auf betreffend des neuen Claimsystem. Da dieses System ja nicht ganz ohne ist.

1) Wie sieht es aus mit ziehen lassen? Ich bin ein kompletter Gegner dieses Systems. Sprich wenn ein 50er in einer Gruppe mit 3 20er ist, bekommen die 20er trotzdem die max Exp oder bekommen sie einen dicken Malus drauf?

2) Wenn ich einen Mob Claim aber kein weiteren Dmg drauf mache und ein andere ihn dann runter bekämpft. Bekomm ich dann die Exp wegen den Claim oder merkt das System das ich nur Faul bin und der Claim wechselt ?

2a) Falls der Claim wechselt, wie ist es geregelt? Wechselt der Claim nur wenn ich komplett Faul bin kurz vor Ende oder ab einen bestimmten prozentualen Anteil an Dmg? Oder ganz anders ?

3) Wie viele Mobs kann ich gleichzeitig Claimen? Gibt es dort eine Begrenzung?

Ja danke. Wie schon gesagt ich find dieses Claimsystem echt super. Nur kann man mit diesen System auch viel kaputt machen wenn man was übersieht oder es nicht richtig funktioniert.

Danke fürs weiterleiten

eine weitere Frage hätte ich noch

4) Wenn ich jemand unterstütze weil er Probleme bei einen Monster hat, kann ich dann die Aggro von den Monster bekommen oder kann ich nur dmg ohne Aggro machen? (ausserhalb einer Gruppe)

4a) Und wie verhält es sich dann bei NMs. Die Gruppe die den Claim hat darf als einzigste Gruppe drauf? Oder können andere Gruppen mit Kämpfen? Und was passiert bei Aggroverlust ?

Beispiel: Die eine Gruppe verliert die Aggro und einer andere Gruppe die nur aushilft bekommt die Aggro und zieht den Mob zum resetten raus um dann selbst den Claim zu bekommen.

Hier ist die Übersetzung des Posts von Yoshida dieses Thema betreffend.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...185#post317185

Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida
Hello, this is Yoshida, the Producer/Director.

I appreciate all the comments from your heated discussion.
I will post my objectives regarding power leveling and the removal of the claim system.

I want to make it clear now that I believe there is no way to settle this argument in a way that everybody will be 100% satisfied with.
Also, this is going to be a very long post, so it may be a difficult read.
(I decided that I would divide up the post, rather than rush through each topic. I hope you read my entire post.)

This is an extreme example, but even for non-online, stand alone games, there are players who enjoy completing the game even if they use cheats to obtain all items or max out their levels. However, other players feel that this is a waste of time and that it defeats the purpose of buying the game. As such, this is a difficult issue to address.

In MMOs, there are players who would like help with leveling, because they want to play with other players as soon as possible. There are also players who would like to help new players level up, so that they can play with them. These players don’t want strong restrictions on power leveling, nor to be confined to parties with major level differences.

In contrast, there are players who believe that, “Players grow together with their characters,” “If other players are power leveling, leveling up becomes meaningless,” “Power leveling will become a necessary part of the game,” and “Power leveling will disrupt areas for proper party play.”

Even without considering RMT and people who level up other players’ characters for profit, this issue is the cause of a lot of friction. For online games, RMT and people who level up other players’ characters for profit will both certainly exist, so they must be considered. This is a good point of discussion, but opinions will vary based on perspective, so it is difficult to reach a definite conclusion.

Thus, I will post the development of how we reached the new specs.

Why the claiming system will be removed
We decided to remove the claiming system from FFXIV because we decided that claiming would become a troublesome spec in the future development of the game. When considering large scale PvE content involving multiple parties and PvP between large numbers of players, the spec that claiming occurs on a 1:1 basis becomes a nuisance. Also, instances will become more prevalent in future content. The concept of having to claim opponents to prevent being disturbed by other players becomes less and less relevant, so we decided that claiming is unnecessary.

Securing reward rights
Up next is the decision on the right to obtain rewards.
This regards who has the right to obtain experience points, dropped items, and quest completion flags when multiple parties (including solo players) attack the same monster.

In first generation MMOs the party that dealt the most damage to the monster was given the rights to the rewards. In the worst case, fighting over rewards was possible. The claiming system in FFXI was implemented to avoid this issue. I decided that it would be best for the player or party that attacked the monster first to obtain rights to the rewards. This makes it so that “the early bird gets the worm,” which I think is the simplest solution. Future content will be heavily instanced, so we think that NMs in public fields will be the most affected by these changes. Rather than allowing players to fight over rewards, I think it is better to feature some kind of gameplay system to make third party involvement in a NM battle impossible. As such, I decided to implement a “first attack” system for rewards rights.

Revision of distribution of rewards
Up next is experience points, the center of our debate.
If we simplify the specs, power leveling will certainly become easier.

I will provide an example involving soloing that is easy to understand. (Power leveling a party involving multiple levels is complicated) Suppose you attack a level 50 monster with your level 1 character. If a level 50 character nearby kills the level 50 monster, the skill points will be given to the level 1 character.

However, the gap between your level 1 character and the level 50 monster is too large, so the “defeating a higher rank monster bonus” will be significantly reduced. The experience points earned by the level 1 character will be adjusted quite drastically.

Suppose you attack a level 3 monster with your level 1 character and a level 50 character nearby kills the level 3 monster. The level 3 monster is appropriate for a level 1 character, so there will be no major drastic loss in experience points.

These are the basics. I will move on to determining whether or not a player is power leveling.

Determining power leveling
The standard for battle length from here on out will be 30-40 seconds to defeat a monster of the same level while soloing. It would take about 4-5 seconds for a level 50 character to defeat a level 3 monster next to a level 1 character. The level 1 character can obtain the full amount of experience points just by standing there. However, the level 50 player involved is spending their time leveling up the other player instead of playing other content.

At this point, it depends how the level 1 character feels about being "helped" by the level 50 character.

Forcing out power leveling
It is not easy to distinguish whether the above actions are an act of good will or serve the purpose of RMT or leveling up other characters for money.

By investigating logs, it is possible to identify for-profit violators and mete out punishment, but it would be very difficult to completely put an end to these actions. Doing so would require implementing very complicated specs, which will place a strain on ordinary users.

* Distribute experience points based on the amount of damage done to the monster
* Distribute experience points based on hate

The above methods were used by first generation MMOs to reduce power leveling, but these methods have their own problems. Players can aggressively fight each other over experience points, classes that do not do much damage are at a disadvantage, and for-profit violators can create bots that randomly attack monsters and steal EXP. (As I said earlier, we will punish for-profit violators. However, we do not want to ban ordinary players, so it will take us time to properly identify for-profit violators.)

One thing we would like to avoid all costs is EXP stealing by bots.

Conclusion
Taking everything into consideration, we understand that there will be pros and cons no matter what, but ultimately, we have decided that as a current generation MMORPG we would like to do something about,

"new players who would like some help, because they want to play with their friends as soon as possible, as well as players who are willing to sacrifice their own time to help out new players get involved in the game quicker."

We plan on implementing end-game content that is extremely difficult, so if assistance is necessary to reach this point I believe that it should be OK for players to help each other out, as long as there are players who are willing to help out.

Differences in gained experience points based on the difference between the player’s level and the defeated monster’s level will still exist, and will be adjusted. Our goal is to prevent any kind of extreme behavior. If any loopholes are found, we would like to fix these issues as they are discovered.

I believe that whether a player is playing seriously or not is a separate issue from whether the player is receiving assistance or not.

Personally, I am the type who believes that it is more fun to work hard and experience as much as you can first hand up until at least level 40, but if somebody comes asking for help saying, "I tried my best up until level 30, but I don’t have any more time!" I will help out.

Of course you would want your friends to enjoy an MMO that you enjoy playing, and if somebody is stuck in a situation where their enjoyment is hitting a wall, you would want to help out. Ultimately, it would be best for everybody to get along and play together.

Zu den Fragen:

1) Ja. Ist der Unterschied zwischen Monster und Spieler zu groß erhält der Spieler einen Malus. Yoshida verwendet hier ein Beispiel mit einem R50 Monster, einem R1 Spieler und einem R50 Helfer. Da der Unterschied zwischen Monster und Spieler so groß ist erhält dieser einen dicken Malus auf seine EXP.
Hat das Monster jedoch einen passenden Rang für den Spieler (zB. R3 Monster) und der Helfer tötet dieses, erhält der Spieler kaum Abzüge.

2) Der Claim wechselt nicht, weil es im Prinzip gar keinen mehr gibt. Die erste Attacke auf den Mob bestimmt lediglich wer den Loot bekommt. Wie das ganze aussieht wenn jemand ausserhalb der Party den Mob killt geht aus dem Post leider nicht hervor.
Dazu möchte ich jedoch folgende Aussage hervorheben:

One thing we would like to avoid all costs is EXP stealing by bots.

Das bedeutet dass keiner einfach vorbeikommt, deine Mobs killt und dir damit EXP stiehlt.

2a) Claim wechselt nicht wirklich weil es praktisch keinen richtigen gibt.

3) Vermutlich! unbegrenzt viele. Mit dem neuen Link System von Gegnern usw. würde es kaum Sinn machen die Anzahl zu begrenzen.
Damit werden auch AoE Zauber endlich sinnvoller.

4) Ich würde sagen dass sich nichts an der Enmity ändert. Das bedeutet, wenn jemand die Aggro zieht dann greift der Gegner eben jenen Spieler an.

4a) Soweit das aus Yoshidas Post hervorgeht können die NMs auch von mehreren Gruppen bekämpft werden. Der Loot geht jedoch nur an die Gruppe die die erste Attacke ausgeführt haben.
Der "geclaimte" NM kann also nicht gestohlen werden bzw. die Items die er dropt.
Sollten jedoch alle Mitglieder der Gruppe die als erste angegriffen hat KO gehen wird vermutlich die Gruppe die den nun "ungeclaimten" NM angreift den Loot erhalten.

Wie das mit Mob wegziehen und resetten aussieht bleibt noch abzuwarten.
Zumindest sagt Yoshida dass sie das System im Auge behalten und gegebenenfalls Änderungen vornehmen werden.

Differences in gained experience points based on the difference between the player’s level and the defeated monster’s level will still exist, and will be adjusted. Our goal is to prevent any kind of extreme behavior. If any loopholes are found, we would like to fix these issues as they are discovered.

Danke für die mühen. Ich glaub wir werden den Beitrag bestimmt im laufe des tages bzw morgen auch auf deutsch bekommen.

Ich hatte mir den schon mal halb durch gelesen. Ich bin wie gesagt sehr froh über das neue System und freu mich echt wahnsinnig drauf