Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[silentwindfr]

i know that it's impossible to create a true AI, i'm not stupid at this point, however it's not true that it's not possible to give replayability to an raid.

let's take a boss fight, we all know that a boss use a pool of skill already etablish (even if in FF14 it's based by the % of the life of the boss on many fight) for the need of the example, let's say he can use 5 skill max, the 4 first skill are always the same, the last one change with each week, each week for each raid, it will use one skill taken from a pool of 3-5 skill designed for this fight.
indeed it will ask more time for create content... but in this way, each week the fight will change a bit without fall into full random or stuff totally idiot.

it's possible to do far more, they simply need to free themself from WoW shadow!

[Yukiko]

by removing the dps check you remove the measurement of a dps role. U can make a party of tanks and healers, and maybe a bard to play the mana song. Yea i know this is the other extreme, but by removing role requirements, you remove the need for a role.

Thats not true!
Classic: This is the origin of MANA or STAMINA bars... For longer Fights then Potions were added.
If a Tank is "tanking" - no Damage on Enemy
If a healer is "healing" - no Damage on Enemy
So, how a Damage Dealer becomes useless?

Seriously, just removing DPS checks will not solve the problem, but it is the first step into the right direction, people like to have classic roles and not some "all can all"...
It is possible to have "all can all" as proven in some other games, but then there were other restrictions as Elemtel weel or other things...

Edit: The Problem we have is that the tank dont have enough "time" to tank because aggro handling he needs to do damage and the healer can not focus only on healing because lengh of buffs there is a useless "in need" rotation (not damaging but also not healing)

[Amberion]

Hell, even FFXI did this. You learn to kite Kirin, pull the adds, wait for the next, etc. I guess it was just easier...

Sometimes you had Suzaku and Seiryu spawn really close together and had to deal with those 2 hours. Or someone grabbing Byakko and he triple attacks the puller to his death.

And well, seems like you talking about 2-3+ years after it was added and people where geared above it.

[Clavaat]

Sometimes you had Suzaku and Seiryu spawn really close together and had to deal with those 2 hours. Or someone grabbing Byakko and he triple attacks the puller to his death.

And well, seems like you talking about 2-3+ years after it was added and people where geared above it.

You only added to my point...read what you wrote and replace Suzaku and Seiryu with Dreadnaught and Rook from T4 or Melee adds from T7 :/ And then apply the next line. It's exactly the same. So thanks?

-snip-

This is interesting, but personally, I wouldn't care to see this or not. I like it the way it is now. Finally completing a fight and getting it to farm status is very satisfying as a group. Randomized mechanics or not, I'm happy so meh.

EDIT: I would like to add that I actually fully support the notion of more Alliance or variable-sized PT content, with minimal lockouts. That part of the OP, I agree with. The mechanics portion, I don't. I enjoy it the way it is, but I guess I wouldn't really care if it changed either.

[zlotjko]

i also think that t6,t7,t9 and to a lesser degree t8 (AF) require some quick thinking. But alas its second coils, thus not available to everyone.
I also think that Yoshida said that the reception of rng and lack of telegraph skills on Stone Vigil HM got a nice reception; And that they are looking for a way to do more of this without punishing the party if one player can't follow (similar how you don't need a tank or healer for the second boss of Hullbreaker and if a party is good, for the last boss too)

Don't get me wrong, i think the game would do good with more random or semi-random elements that are not punishing too much, would make DR much more interesting then it is now, but i also think that its a fragile balance that needs a lot of time and experimentation to implement properly. With the last set of expert dungeons i think they are on a good path, and we need to give them more time for more of that to come. Especially since a lot of their manpower is focusing the expansion.

But please do remember that a person with a slight lag might die on Tam-Tara HM last boss if it doesn't have a reaction that can compensate for the lag. Similar is the last boss of Stone Vigil HM. Puzzle like bosses like second boss of Stone Vigil HM become even more boring after few times.

To me, and some other players, a fight isn't interesting if it doesn't require an effort, test of skill, reaction, awareness. But the threshold of what turns interesting into frustration is different for every player. Thus the same fight with different party members can turn from fun to anger. The balance is the key and that balance changes depending on the progress of the game (expert DR isn't the same as high lvl DR). Thats why some of us say that coil v2 and later, savage is an option when you clear all the previous content.

If you put too much rng components in a fight but they aren't punishing enough, people will just ignore them. With higher ilvl and echo that threat is even lesser, making people ignore whole mechanics (like the lass boss of Lost City of Amdapor Keep, where you can eat the first cast, tank lb second or if dps is good enough kill it before the second cast).

What am trying to say, you need to have all of this aspects in mind and how they reflect on the game and its population. Currently the RNG is "hidden" behind a ilvl and difficulty wall. The stuff that isn't even now gets ignored. Hard to balance the range of 30-40 ilvls (70-110) where the dps can go from 150-450 and tank hp from 5k to 10k.

Just try to remember/observe your reaction when you see a healer with 3k hp or a tank with <5k hp in Titan HM.

[zlotjko]

Thats not true!

Classic: This is the origin of MANA or STAMINA bars... For longer Fights then Potions were added.
If a Tank is "tanking" - no Damage on Enemy
If a healer is "healing" - no Damage on Enemy
So, how a Damage Dealer becomes useless?

Tanks do damage, just less then DPS. Healer can also do damage if there is no need for hard healing (like low hp dps).
Usual dps of a tank is around 125-250 depending of the gear (usual aggro rotations for war/ pld shield oath). That is equal of a bad dps or more then a dead dps.
That means that with enough time, the tanks and healers could kill the boss without the dps.
Another example is that for savage coil (and normal coil v2 in the start with ilvl 90 gear) people used tank accessories to have higher HP (and less dps which is their job, but they compensated the difference, at least well enough).
Or equipping melee DPS accessories on tanks and switching off/to defiance/sword oath. Because all that unnecessary HP is a waste of stats.

Another example (personal experience) i have a ilvl 109 War. I equip him with my 110 ilvl accessories from the mnk. I also ask the pt to wait 5-6 sec after i pull (for the storm's eye rotation, at least half of it done). Without defiance, and storm's eye up, i use berserk and continue my standard aggro rotation (without defiance). Its a little harder to heal, but an excellent 109 ilvl blm can't take aggro off of me. If things get rough, i just pop on defiance for better heals or aggro if needed till i stabilize the situation, then turn it off again. Same thing what people do with Cleric Stance.

[Yukiko]

@zlotjko:

Your argumentation was:

removing the dps check, which is removing role requirements, results in remove the need for a role.

I know you are talking from current FFXIV, and so far it is true, but...
I was NOT talking from FFXIV, i was talking about your argument and that is where you are wrong!
I was adding history of gaming and classic RP style, well we can discuss if "Supporter" is one of the main roles too but lets stick on the 3 from SE definition...
So you change one aspect but dont think of any way to lessen the negative effects of changing it... Why dont you change 2 spects or 3 then?
If you talk about FFXIV then dont change anything or you have to consider "other" changes too!

[zlotjko]

From what i understood, the topic here is "the current state of end game content" for Final Fantasy XIV. Maybe i missed where you were talking about other games, but my arguments, thoughts and examples are all linked to FF XIV. The topic also isn't linked to the support role that doesn't exists as a role in FF XIV (support skills are distributed to all classes).

The part about the aspect i really didn't understand. By lowering the HP of a tank i make him more vulnerable, that is the negative side of using other classes gear. I make him hit harder in hope that my party can finish stuff in less time. He still is a tank, which by my opinion has enough HP to do his role, am just swaping the non efficient HP to STR. My primary role/job didn't change as am still the one who tanks the boss, has tank skills. This is all linked to the balance of the game that in the current state allows that.

Please understand that i didn't fully understand what you meant (was guessing) so it is possible that i said something that really has nothing to do with your post.
If it is like that, please rephrase your post, so we can continue our debate in a way where there are no guesses and misunderstandings, and i will gladly edit this post into an empty one or delete it.
If i do say something that is difficult to understand, please be kind enough to let me know, i will gladly rephrase it.

[Kaethra]

I kinda like the idea of removing routine from fights. Take the same good 8 people into Titan Hardmode. They will beat it the same way everytime unless someone screws up. The fight will be the same. You could set a clock by the rotations used in the group.

But remove the routine of the fight by randomizing the abilities of the boss and the fight becomes a new one each time you run it. Maybe set a cooldown so there's not 4x+ mountain busters for example, or maybe even let it ride and see how groups react to it. Allow players to use out of box thinking with their abilities for once. Obviously many fights would need rebalancing such as the example with titan during a heart phase... excessive back to back plumes would make getting the heart down in time a little heinous. Perhaps a failed heart phase makes subsequent mountain busters AOE for about a minute or so. Making the fight extremely crazy but still not unbeatable.

[silentwindfr]

snips

we can't ask them to change what exist already, the work will be insane, however we can ask them to do this for the new content coming, it's the right time for do it, because next year we do get the expansion, it's the right time for point out stuff that needed to be changed for make the game more enjoying and thrilling than it is actually. that the whole point of this thread