Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Litre]

Ya we can't cater for everyone, anyone with 8-10 second lag spikes as the result of a connection, well is probably locked out of many other games as well. Nerfing content, even super old content to the point where you can lag out for 8-10 seconds and still win is a bit extreme.

[Litre]

You don't have to memorize anything at all. In fact, the game is so soft on everyone that it allows you to either react or memorize.

No, you don't have to memorize, but it sure helps a lot, because you're multi-tasking combat too. So if you know the next 3 moves that are coming up you can prepare for them and focus more on the combat.

Once again that comes down to bias, this may be easy for you, you are probably a very skilled player, but for many others they need to memorize at least the critical sections or they get overwhelmed.

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

Ok sure, the main flaw with this post's reasoning is that it ignores TIME

It's already true that the content in this game becomes much easier with item level increases, so it's already possible to reduce difficulty by overgearing the content.

Not completely true, the OP points to many mechanics, we are using Titan EX landslide and Twintania divebombs to point out that insta-kill mechanics negate any ease introduced by overgearing content. You can overgear all you want but one mistake by a party member and you're dead, iLvl 75 or 200. One of my central arguments is that on release of new content, these mechanics should insta-kill anyone, but after some time, gear should allow you to survive it. This requires balancing insta-kill mechanics to be just very high-damage mechanics - kills anyone at the intended iLvl, but almost kills anyone overgeared.

So when people say they want to be more able to overgear content, the implication is that they want to be able to circumvent the challenge of a fight with gear

Agreed, they want to circumvent challenge, what's wrong with that I ask? Why do games have an easy difficulty, normal and hard? Because some people don't like challenge, some people play RPGs and lvled up to 10+ what's needed for the boss so they can crush it, I'm sure you can think of a friend like that. We're not all hardcore gamers, some of us want to relax, and have fun and hang out with the community. Surely you must understand this, if FFXIV wants to keep its subscription numbers we need to keep those people around. They usually play less too, probably just reaching that content 3-4 months after its release, why not let them beat it more easily? This is not a race, let them run at their own pace, people need to stop thinking it's a race, it goes back to that WOW developer's post, this breeds a toxic community, which we have now.

The most popular suggestion is making fights "random". For one, this only creates the illusion of choice compared to the "scripted" battles we have now. You'll still react the same way to the same attack, you'll just be doing it in a different order. Additionally, this will make the battles harder for people who can't dodge/react to the current system where you literally know what is coming next. The only way to avoid this is to make failure less "punishing", and this is tied to the idea that gear should be the primary determining factor in victory. Now, you don't have to dodge. Just heal through it and do whatever you want. Suddenly, no depth, no challenge, no fun, no better off than we were before, just different for the sake of being different.

This here, is the biggest fallacy, this ties back to the issue of time, you are forgetting there are months between when content is released, and when gear catches up to allow them to survive high damage mechanics.

1. When content is released, the scripted mechanics are so punishing, they may as well be insta-kill, hardcore players, will need to dodge these or face a wipe, the game will be just as hard as it is now for newly released content. But there can also be random mechanics that do less-damage, the trick is a healthier balance between scripted mechanics and random attacks, now to hardcore players this balance doesn't matter, they are good enough to adapt. Challenge is the same, there's less you can memorize for, but more you can react to, I'd personally enjoy this and I know many others will too. The scripted/random mechanics are still the primary determining factor of the fight "for now (new content)"

2. Now as casual/mainstream players catch up, MONTHS LATER, gear wise they will have an easier time, allowing them to survive a few more mistakes, as time goes on, even the most casual players will stand a chance.


Here's the problem, it's not balanced in this way, the mechanics are the primary determining factor in victory, and always will be, years after content release unless they fix insta-kill, miss a divebomb, you wipe your party, end of story.


We are not asking for extremes, we are asking for balance, not make it 100% scripted or 100% random, allow mechanics attacks to scale slower than gear, so that gear can "eventually" ease the fight. So properly address easing the difficulty of fights, a blanket echo stat boost was just pure laziness and doesn't help as the OP pointed out.

This idea of "Let me overgear content and let me do it NAO!" would solve one problem (casuals feeling left out). But it would also completely ignore another problem (recognizing player skill) while making yet another one worse (these battles are no fun).

So coming back to this, nope, balanced content will be difficult upon release, and does not ignore the problem of "recognizing player skill", balanced content will also scale better with gear, so after a few months (TIME) maybe more, it will also address the problem of "casuals feeling left out".

And "battles are no fun"? Fun is subjective, fun is defeating something "the person playing" finds challenging, and what's not challenging to you may be challenging to others and fun for them. I played hardcore too once, I admit I had a pure definition of fun too, playing a game at the top-tier was exhilarating, challenging and victories were so much sweeter. I was arrogant too, I felt that, everyone should experience this awesome feeling, but as I talked to more and more people I found that lots of people were normal and had modest goals and enjoyed just crafting or slowly progressing. And the more I got to know them, the more I understood, that this game isn't accepting to these types of players.

So I'll tell you what's not fun, being elitist and subjecting casual players to the same arrogant standards you have for game difficulty and assuming because it's fun for you, that if they just worked harder they'd experience the fun that you experience. I'm sorry it doesn't work that way, they are just getting frustrated and giving up and quitting, sure some players improve but that takes dedication, time, practice, etc... Not something casual players usually have the time for.

[Clavaat]

-big snip-

I get what you're saying. I don't know if you have read what I've posted previously, but given everything you just said, I still can't agree with you. You are actually falling under the same issue that I'm seeing with those you call elitist; you are assuming that there are people who literally are incapable of completing content. And I can't agree with that, ever. Whether we're talking PUGs, or statics, it doesn't matter. Everyone who purchased this game is capable of clearing everything here. It may come easier to some, but a positive attitude, leadership and dedication are the only things you need to complete anything this game has to offer.

Time is irrelevant. When you're playing an MMO, everything is made to take a lot of time, one way or another. Getting proper teamwork down will take lot's of it, but that's ok. At the end of the day, win or lose, isn't the comradery with you teammates the important thing? If you don't have time for practice and learning, what do you have time for? As someone else pointed out, I'm probably just being overly-whimsical, but I think in regard to this game, it works.

[OSUBuckeye4]

I wasn't debating latency at all, though. The OP doesn't even mention connection or lag issues, it was purely for the context of game mechanics so I saw no reason to bring it up. Regardless, that's a much trickier issue, and will always be for any online game. There's so many factors: ISP, upload/download rate, CDN, Server power, location, programming, hardware limitations client-side, etc. That is a debate for a whole other thread, though.

I agree with you.

You've made some good points, as have a lot of others in this thread.

---

This is slightly off-topic, but, I do think that a big part of the problem with FF14, was the way SE rolled it out. Too many people reached end-game way too quickly (instant gratification). There's really nothing that can be done about that now though.


Then again, MMORPG developers are kind of darned if they do and darned if they don't. If they release something that 90% of the playerbase can't get to end-game on within 6 months... lots of casual players get discouraged and never make the purcahse in the first place.

If they release something that you can get to end-game on in less than 3 months... everyone gets bottlenecked and the developers can't release additional content quickly enough to keep up with demand, and they have to implement lockouts and unnecessarily tediously grindy content.


That's definitely a different discussion for a different thread though.

[Litre]

you are assuming that there are people who literally are incapable of completing content. And I can't agree with that, ever.

Yoshi has said about 5% of players have even cleared T5, even if it's 6-7 now, who knows how many have tried and given up or are still stuck on even older content such as Primal EXs etc... I'm not saying these players are mentally incapable of completing the content, I'm saying they don't have either the time, dedication or motivation to complete some of the content, the way it is as released.


But to that you say:

If you don't have time for practice and learning, what do you have time for? As someone else pointed out, I'm probably just being overly-whimsical, but I think in regard to this game, it works.

The whole game and MMOs are moving towards the direction of catering to players who don't have "as much" time for practicing, many of us are seeing these players leave, they are frustrated because they only have 1-2 hours to play a day and all they do is hit the wall that is Titan EX or whatever.

In regards to the game, it's not working, maybe it's less apparent on your server, I don't know - or you have "sample bias" meaning you're in a good FC or LS with other skilled players who enjoy the game as it is. I used to play more, but as work picked up I've joined more casual LSes, and am seeing many players leave for other games, so are many others, that's why I'm so adamant about these issues.

I just hate hearing elitists, say "this game is easier, just get better, practice, find a static", they are completely oblivious to other peoples' circumstances. It's frustrating for them, not fun, and they have no motivation because after they beat it, there's just more frustration waiting for them. But Yoshi put the main storyline content behind this difficulty wall, so they are forced into it. We realize they can only make content so fast, given their resources, so why not re-purpose existing older content so it's within reach of casual players? Echo was a start, but it was a lazy nerf, it doesn't address a lot, there's a lot more balancing they could be doing there.

Though they are on a good track, I really like the sightseeing log and such, gives them more casual things to tide them over.

[Clavaat]

The whole game and MMOs are moving towards the direction of catering to players who don't have "as much" time for practicing, many of us are seeing these players leave, they are frustrated because they only have 1-2 hours to play a day and all they do is hit the wall that is Titan EX or whatever.

I can understand that, to a point. However, I feel like these players have a problem with pacing themselves, and being realistic with their goals. For example, I know I come home and maybe have 5 hours to play before I need to go to bed. Life happens, and I know I have to do laundry one day, cook another, etc. So let's say the time goes down to 2 hours. Being aware that Titan EX is a difficult challenge, I know that I probably would be trying the rest of my time to get it down. Do I want to use that time for practice, or try something else, and wait for a day when I have more time to sit and really get it down? You have to take some personal responsibility into mind into what will realistically happen during your playtime.

In regards to the game, it's not working, maybe it's less apparent on your server, I don't know - or you have "sample bias" meaning you're in a good FC or LS with other skilled players who enjoy the game as it is. I used to play more, but as work picked up I've joined more casual LSes, and am seeing many players leave for other games, so are many others, that's why I'm so adamant about these issues.

That's very possible. Pretty much everyone I am involved with is generally satisfied with the pacing of the game, be they "casual" or "hardcore" (mind you, I really hate these terms, because they are too black and white). I can see it from your point of view though. Early on in my FC/LS lifespan I had a lot of issues keeping players interested and active. However, it has gotten much better, as I chose to look for people who I knew would keep playing. This included newer players, who I helped get caught up to speed. I would sum it up to growing pains; as the game and community grows and solidifies, the experience will be more positive overall. Many people joined early and quit, and I can't necessarily blame the reasons you have provided for this to be case. I know it's normally scoffed at, but I think we'll really just have to see after the first expansion what people are still thinking. Maybe a lot of players would come back, regardless of drastic changes in the difficulty curve. Maybe they won't.

Either way, I don't want you to take this disagreement as disrespect on my part. I respect your opinion and the time you've taken to flesh it out, along with the original OP. Judging by the amount of interest this thread has garnered (and how few people actually seem to agree with me), it's very possible you're right and I'm wrong here (though, again, that's very black and white). I'd like to think I'd support this game either direction it goes in the future, simply because I've made a lot of friends and am still having a lot of fun.

[Gormogon]

snip

I would like to add to that. I can have all the time in the world, but I'm not gonna give up, abandon, seclude myself, and/or replace the people I play with just to join a group capable of doing and gaining the best "digital" loot the game has to offer because it isn't possible with the people I do play with. I did it in WoW and by the end of the month I realized that it was not worth it.

Personally I would rather use that time I have enjoying it with the people I play with regardless of their skill level and if I have so much extra time when they are not around then I'll use it elsewhere such as playing another game on my PC, my handhelds, or on my consoles until the people I play with want to content. Especially when MMO's end-game content is secluded to a number of players and lockouts.

Yet the way I handle my downtime is not the same for other players. Clavaat's expectations, as well as others here in this thread, of what players should do just to experience end-game is an unrealistic one when it comes to what the majority will actually do. Players "can" potentially do it but you "can" expect just as many hardcore elitist to downgrade their gear and remove the echo buff as a group to keep content hard for them. The norm reaction has been present since the very day MMO's were accessible and I too have taken that approach before if not I would still be playing Ragnarok Online.

During downtime players would rather take their group of friends and seek out another experience since they have been blocked from experiencing content or can't experience content anymore until the following week. In the case of FFXIV ARR and the old FC I was in players would log off to play LoL, Smite, Diablo 3, check out other MMO's such as TESO, Black Desert, and enjoy Wildstar to the point that they switched over since Coil was roadblock and the 2-3 month wait for major patches and the content that it offer was not appealing to them.

I know some people will want to believe that it is impossible to please everyone. Sure you wont appeal to 100% yet that shouldn't mean that one should give up trying. A consistent schedule that delivers equally rich and diverse content that is appealing to as many players as possible is better than a schedule that only appeals to a specific demograph and tries to slowly branch out to the rest with no rewards and goals.

[Clavaat]

In the case of FFXIV ARR and the old FC I was in players would log off to play LoL, Smite, Diablo 3, check out other MMO's such as TESO, Black Desert, and enjoy Wildstar to the point that they switched over since Coil was roadblock and the 2-3 month wait for major patches and the content that it offer was not appealing to them.

They would have done that anyway, though. Look, I've done my time with FFXI, and while I don't regret it, I truly spent way too much time playing. To the point that it was borderline unhealthy. I would play when I was offered other games and RL things to do. When I approached FFXIV, I realized that I could get a lot done in not a lot of time, thus making it easier to pace myself and balance what I wanted to do with my RL schedule. I don't have a "hardcore" amount of time to play this game, but I am satisfied logging on and practicing with my LS/FC for a little while on scheduled days. After that, there are other things I could do, and I often do, but I somehow also find time to play other games in my backlog, catch up on shows I enjoy, see movies, hang out with friends, etc. If FFXIV became or becomes too much like FFXI, I would probably have to leave simply because I don't want that again. And I think, through the years, other people have realized that's not what they want either. They know that MMO's are a commitment and welcome a more relaxed commitment that allows them to play other games and do other things.

[Lewena]

The few last posts were really interesting as it seems to me that is some understanding between each party (also I don't like casual and elitist terme). Something I feel that would be nice and allow further constructive discussion would to make a summary of what each party wants, making expectations the clearest as possible (for exemple, what is fun ?), and prioritize them. Next step would be to find a system that fullfils those expectations.

[Gormogon]

The few last posts were really interesting as it seems to me that is some understanding between each party (also I don't like casual and elitist terme). Something I feel that would be nice and allow further constructive discussion would to make a summary of what each party wants, making expectations the clearest as possible (for exemple, what is fun ?), and prioritize them. Next step would be to find a system that fullfils those expectations.

Personally it boils down to.

A.) Those that want content to be joyful.
B.) Those that want content to be exclusive.

Those part of the B camp have a very big issue with A because they interpret joy as only meaning lazy and easy. No matter how much you say otherwise and no matter how many times it is explained and showcased they wont hear it.

It's an issue that hasn't be resolved for decade but throughout that course of time I've only heard 1 Lead Designer give his 2 cents on the matter.