Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Clavaat]

that would mean that PUGs have no chance to ever win a high-end fight. Memorization plays a huge part, you can't ignore it

I beg to differ. If the people in said PUG have a designated leader, or actually communicate politely and effectively, they still have a possibility of winning. This is much more difficult to come to terms on with a PUG, but it is possible nonetheless. Essentially that would come down to the whole "toxic community" argument. And I only meant memorization is not the only factor as many seem to be saying/thinking. The bigger factor is being able to adapt when the pattern doesn't always apply (phase is a little early/late, some moves overlap, you make an error in judgment, etc).

[Melithea]

Could a EQ game even survive anymore?

Everquest and Everquest 2 both survive to this day, sort of.

It's really hard to find recent and accurate numbers, but from a little investigating EQ active subscription numbers look something like this.

2004: 550,000
2007: 175,000
2010: 100,000
2014: ???

By way of comparison, FFXI had 350,000 in 2010 and XIV: ARR currently has more subscriptions than EQ ever had. Now, I'm all for ARR becoming more fun, but people saying that they miss EQ and if ARR doesn't return to the days of EQ it's going to DIE~! really need to realize that EQ was a different game from a different time, and if we're talking from a purely financial/subscription perspective, SE sure as hell doesn't need to take any advice from Everquest.

By the way, people have suggested skillchains and stuff like that be brought back. Maybe not in this thread, but people have been asking for things like that here and there since launch. I don't remember if there was ever an official answer, but this strikes me as the perfect example of the kind of solution that it might be a really good idea to throw back out there and blow it up until it can't be ignored.

[Grizzlebeard]

By way of comparison, FFXI had 350,000 in 2010 and XIV: ARR currently has more subscriptions than EQ ever had.

Try and remember that EQ existed in an MMO vacuum. Hardly anyone in the world knew what an MMORPG was let alone played one. The potential subscription base for MMOs back then was significantly smaller than now and Sony Online Entertainment (SoE) were never amazing at promotion, or Verant for that matter. By that standard, FFXIV's subscription level is laughable compared to that of WoW's. When EQ: Next launches we'll see a more realistic indication of what EQ subscription numbers would have been in the current marketplace.

SE sure as hell doesn't need to take any advice from Everquest.

Were it not for EQ there would have been no WoW, no FFXI, and ultimately no FFXIV. As for taking advice, FFXI was so heavily influenced by EQ it's hilarious to feel S-E have nothing to learn from SoE.

[OSUBuckeye4]

I beg to differ. If the people in said PUG have a designated leader, or actually communicate politely and effectively, they still have a possibility of winning. This is much more difficult to come to terms on with a PUG, but it is possible nonetheless. Essentially that would come down to the whole "toxic community" argument. And I only meant memorization is not the only factor as many seem to be saying/thinking. The bigger factor is being able to adapt when the pattern doesn't always apply (phase is a little early/late, some moves overlap, you make an error in judgment, etc).

This is all great in theory, but, you only get 60 minutes in Primals and 90 minutes in dungeons.

You're basically suggesting that people que up for DF, enter a dungeon and spend time voting on a leader and getting to know each others strengths/weaknesses and setting up backup plans. At the end of it, everyone goes their seperate ways.

That's very noble and whimsicle... but, it's not realistic with the current limitations that SE puts on their content.

[Rosy]

It's really hard to find recent and accurate numbers, but from a little investigating EQ active subscription numbers look something like this.

2004: 550,000
2007: 175,000
2010: 100,000
2014: ???

By way of comparison, FFXI had 350,000 in 2010 and XIV: ARR currently has more subscriptions than EQ ever had. Now, I'm all for ARR becoming more fun, but people saying that they miss EQ and if ARR doesn't return to the days of EQ it's going to DIE~! really need to realize that EQ was a different game from a different time, and if we're talking from a purely financial/subscription perspective, SE sure as hell doesn't need to take any advice from Everquest. By the way, people have suggested skillchains and stuff like that be brought back. Maybe not in this thread, but people have been asking for things like that here and there since launch. I don't remember if there was ever an official answer, but this strikes me as the perfect example of the kind of solution that it might be a really good idea to throw back out there and blow it up until it can't be ignored.

I never said that!!

[Clavaat]

This is all great in theory, but, you only get 60 minutes in Primals and 90 minutes in dungeons.

You're basically suggesting that people que up for DF, enter a dungeon and spend time voting on a leader and getting to know each others strengths/weaknesses and setting up backup plans. At the end of it, everyone goes their seperate ways.

That's very noble and whimsicle... but, it's not realistic with the current limitations that SE puts on their content.

Yeah, I can understand that. I was speaking mostly for PF. DF, I truly don't know. Those are whole other debates. Either way, the general point I was trying to make is that even though this content is fairly unforgiving towards people of a lower skill-ceiling, it's very possible for everyone to clear it and enjoy it, if you tweak your attitude/understanding a bit. And that the challenge comes from actually working together, not necessarily from the fight itself on you as an individual. I'm not sure how else to word it, but I've seen evidence in my experience to show that the possibility is there.

[OSUBuckeye4]

Yeah, I can understand that. I was speaking mostly for PF. DF, I truly don't know. Those are whole other debates. Either way, the general point I was trying to make is that even though this content is fairly unforgiving towards people of a lower skill-ceiling, it's very possible for everyone to clear it and enjoy it, if you tweak your attitude/understanding a bit. And that the challenge comes from actually working together, not necessarily from the fight itself on you as an individual. I'm not sure how else to word it, but I've seen evidence in my experience to show that the possibility is there.

I know what you're saying, but, I've run across people who lierally can't clear certain content because of connection issues.

I run content with them, their rotations are good, their adaptability is good, they know when to pop skills, if things go wrong they know when to improvise... they just have unavoidable lag spikes that lead to them getting woosh'ed off platforms to their non-recoverable death in content like Titan EX.

You'll say, "oh, they just say they have lag"... no, the same spikes happen in dungeons like Brayflox and Halitali... they just spike and have 8-10 seconds where they can't do anything.

There's really nothing they can do (except pray for 15 minutes or so without a spike, or for the spike to occur while Titan isn't popping landslides)... they can run the content flawlessly for 8 mintues, but then a spike hits and it's bye bye and then you're running the rest of the fight with 7 people and it just got that much more difficult.

Is it technically possible to defeat Titan EX with 7 people? Sure, if that person who got insta-gibbed isn't a healer or tank. Should that really be the way the game is designed though?

It's really just poor and lazy game design to have a fight that continously pops insta-die mechanics with no possiblity of recovery for 10-15 minutes straight.

You might disagree though, and we can agree to disagree I guess.

[Gormogon]

That's very noble and whimsicle... but, it's not realistic with the current limitations that SE puts on their content.

Yeah it is not realistic especially when the continual growth on difficulty has increased the negativity and toxicity of the players in DF, PF, etc on average. It is the price for desiring harder content and it is to be expected, imho.

[Melithea]

As for taking advice, FFXI was so heavily influenced by EQ it's hilarious to feel S-E have nothing to learn from SoE.

And in terms of playerbase XIV is more successful than XI ever was.

I never said that!!

Then I wasn't quoting you? Consider it a paraphrase of the combined positions of "Everyone is getting bored and leaving" and "This is why the original MMOs were more fun/better than ARR".

When EQ: Next launches we'll see a more realistic indication of what EQ subscription numbers would have been in the current marketplace.

Yes, but at the moment this is pure speculation.

Honestly, I thought leveling in ARR should have taken longer than it did, for example. Not as long as it did in FFXI though, which I started playing when Rise of the Zilart was released and a year later my highest job was only level ~55 (IIRC). And I was an avid player. Can you imagine ARR right now if the average player today was under level 36?

Let's be really, really careful with the nostalgia goggles and stay focused on ways to add depth to the battle system. Your masochistic romanticism over corpse runs and leveling down would drive off more players than Titan EX ever could. Yes, the community left might be a little closer, and that would be a natural result of having a much smaller community. But at what cost?

[Clavaat]

-snip-

I wasn't debating latency at all, though. The OP doesn't even mention connection or lag issues, it was purely for the context of game mechanics so I saw no reason to bring it up. Regardless, that's a much trickier issue, and will always be for any online game. There's so many factors: ISP, upload/download rate, CDN, Server power, location, programming, hardware limitations client-side, etc. That is a debate for a whole other thread, though.