Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Iriadysa]

You know what's the most recurring fallacy in this thread? This:

"You have to memorize rotations! Memorizing is not difficulty".

Nope, you all are wrong. You don't have to memorize anything at all. In fact, the game is so soft on everyone that it allows you to either react or memorize.

The more I read this thread the more I'm convinced about my opinions on the ones defending this shitty concept. Which, btw, you aren't as many as you believe you are. Page after page it's the same 4 or 5 faces repeating the same arguments and ignoring the actual crux of the problem, which I quote from 7 pages back (and which I have brought numerous times as well, always to be completely ignored):

Was reading back and picked up on this, I think it's a good opportunity to summarize the concepts at work here again.

First of all, it depends what you mean by "overgear content". It's already true that the content in this game becomes much easier with item level increases, so it's already possible to reduce difficulty by overgearing the content. So when people say they want to be more able to overgear content, the implication is that they want to be able to circumvent the challenge of a fight with gear (think killing Demon Wall before the hornets could spawn, back when they still did). Then, in the same breath, they say they want fights with more depth, more fun, more interaction, and more random play. To this I say, which is it? So far, no proposed solution addresses both of these desires. In fact, as far as I can tell every solution makes one of these problems or the other even worse.

The most popular suggestion is making fights "random". For one, this only creates the illusion of choice compared to the "scripted" battles we have now. You'll still react the same way to the same attack, you'll just be doing it in a different order. Additionally, this will make the battles harder for people who can't dodge/react to the current system where you literally know what is coming next. The only way to avoid this is to make failure less "punishing", and this is tied to the idea that gear should be the primary determining factor in victory. Now, you don't have to dodge. Just heal through it and do whatever you want. Suddenly, no depth, no challenge, no fun, no better off than we were before, just different for the sake of being different.

People have come up with some very creative ways to randomize fights. In my opinion, none of them actually solve the proposition of the OP and the competing interests of the different groups of players.

The OP also wants to reintroduce attempt lock-outs on content as opposed to the clear lock-outs we now have. While this may free up the developers to make battles less mechanics driven as the OP suggests, there are two issues. 1. People complain about attempt lock-outs just as much as they do about clear lock-outs. 2. Attempt lock-out systems worked because loot followed the rare drop system rather than our guaranteed drop system. This is another one of those ugly unintended consequences I keep bringing up.

Do you see now why it's not so simple? This idea of "Let me overgear content and let me do it NAO!" would solve one problem (casuals feeling left out). But it would also completely ignore another problem (recognizing player skill) while making yet another one worse (these battles are no fun).

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

ARR follows WoW's model almost exactly. It is accessible, in the early levels, everything is charted out and spoon fed to you in rapid succession. When you finally get to endgame, it layers on difficulty by being punishing if you don't follow the exact scripted steps that the game designers intend for you to take.

I think the following sums up what is wrong with this model, from one of the people who designed it:



ARR tries to artificially infuse challenge and longevity into this model by implementing punishing group memorization tests.

But the flaws in cloning WoW are fundamental, and simply making Titan EX or T5 easier won't fix them.

The game needs challenge... REAL challenge based on DEPTH (meaningful decision making) rather than mere EXECUTION (group jump-rope)

We can agree with the quoted WoW text. And I wish people understood that the worshiped OP does not advocate for this. Whoever thinks it does has not understood anything.
You, however, are performing a brutal fallacious trick here: the quoted text has nothing to do with your conclusion.

I recommend a career in politics if you are not already considering it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

There's nothing to address. There should be no requirement for old content to remain current. If you overgear something so significantly then you've clearly already earned your spurs and shouldn't have to keep jumping through the same instagib hoops such as Landslide.

[Litre]

You don't have to memorize anything at all. In fact, the game is so soft on everyone that it allows you to either react or memorize.

No, you don't have to memorize, but it sure helps a lot, because you're multi-tasking combat too. So if you know the next 3 moves that are coming up you can prepare for them and focus more on the combat.

Once again that comes down to bias, this may be easy for you, you are probably a very skilled player, but for many others they need to memorize at least the critical sections or they get overwhelmed.

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

Ok sure, the main flaw with this post's reasoning is that it ignores TIME

It's already true that the content in this game becomes much easier with item level increases, so it's already possible to reduce difficulty by overgearing the content.

Not completely true, the OP points to many mechanics, we are using Titan EX landslide and Twintania divebombs to point out that insta-kill mechanics negate any ease introduced by overgearing content. You can overgear all you want but one mistake by a party member and you're dead, iLvl 75 or 200. One of my central arguments is that on release of new content, these mechanics should insta-kill anyone, but after some time, gear should allow you to survive it. This requires balancing insta-kill mechanics to be just very high-damage mechanics - kills anyone at the intended iLvl, but almost kills anyone overgeared.

So when people say they want to be more able to overgear content, the implication is that they want to be able to circumvent the challenge of a fight with gear

Agreed, they want to circumvent challenge, what's wrong with that I ask? Why do games have an easy difficulty, normal and hard? Because some people don't like challenge, some people play RPGs and lvled up to 10+ what's needed for the boss so they can crush it, I'm sure you can think of a friend like that. We're not all hardcore gamers, some of us want to relax, and have fun and hang out with the community. Surely you must understand this, if FFXIV wants to keep its subscription numbers we need to keep those people around. They usually play less too, probably just reaching that content 3-4 months after its release, why not let them beat it more easily? This is not a race, let them run at their own pace, people need to stop thinking it's a race, it goes back to that WOW developer's post, this breeds a toxic community, which we have now.

The most popular suggestion is making fights "random". For one, this only creates the illusion of choice compared to the "scripted" battles we have now. You'll still react the same way to the same attack, you'll just be doing it in a different order. Additionally, this will make the battles harder for people who can't dodge/react to the current system where you literally know what is coming next. The only way to avoid this is to make failure less "punishing", and this is tied to the idea that gear should be the primary determining factor in victory. Now, you don't have to dodge. Just heal through it and do whatever you want. Suddenly, no depth, no challenge, no fun, no better off than we were before, just different for the sake of being different.

This here, is the biggest fallacy, this ties back to the issue of time, you are forgetting there are months between when content is released, and when gear catches up to allow them to survive high damage mechanics.

1. When content is released, the scripted mechanics are so punishing, they may as well be insta-kill, hardcore players, will need to dodge these or face a wipe, the game will be just as hard as it is now for newly released content. But there can also be random mechanics that do less-damage, the trick is a healthier balance between scripted mechanics and random attacks, now to hardcore players this balance doesn't matter, they are good enough to adapt. Challenge is the same, there's less you can memorize for, but more you can react to, I'd personally enjoy this and I know many others will too. The scripted/random mechanics are still the primary determining factor of the fight "for now (new content)"

2. Now as casual/mainstream players catch up, MONTHS LATER, gear wise they will have an easier time, allowing them to survive a few more mistakes, as time goes on, even the most casual players will stand a chance.


Here's the problem, it's not balanced in this way, the mechanics are the primary determining factor in victory, and always will be, years after content release unless they fix insta-kill, miss a divebomb, you wipe your party, end of story.


We are not asking for extremes, we are asking for balance, not make it 100% scripted or 100% random, allow mechanics attacks to scale slower than gear, so that gear can "eventually" ease the fight. So properly address easing the difficulty of fights, a blanket echo stat boost was just pure laziness and doesn't help as the OP pointed out.

This idea of "Let me overgear content and let me do it NAO!" would solve one problem (casuals feeling left out). But it would also completely ignore another problem (recognizing player skill) while making yet another one worse (these battles are no fun).

So coming back to this, nope, balanced content will be difficult upon release, and does not ignore the problem of "recognizing player skill", balanced content will also scale better with gear, so after a few months (TIME) maybe more, it will also address the problem of "casuals feeling left out".

And "battles are no fun"? Fun is subjective, fun is defeating something "the person playing" finds challenging, and what's not challenging to you may be challenging to others and fun for them. I played hardcore too once, I admit I had a pure definition of fun too, playing a game at the top-tier was exhilarating, challenging and victories were so much sweeter. I was arrogant too, I felt that, everyone should experience this awesome feeling, but as I talked to more and more people I found that lots of people were normal and had modest goals and enjoyed just crafting or slowly progressing. And the more I got to know them, the more I understood, that this game isn't accepting to these types of players.

So I'll tell you what's not fun, being elitist and subjecting casual players to the same arrogant standards you have for game difficulty and assuming because it's fun for you, that if they just worked harder they'd experience the fun that you experience. I'm sorry it doesn't work that way, they are just getting frustrated and giving up and quitting, sure some players improve but that takes dedication, time, practice, etc... Not something casual players usually have the time for.

[Clavaat]

-big snip-

I get what you're saying. I don't know if you have read what I've posted previously, but given everything you just said, I still can't agree with you. You are actually falling under the same issue that I'm seeing with those you call elitist; you are assuming that there are people who literally are incapable of completing content. And I can't agree with that, ever. Whether we're talking PUGs, or statics, it doesn't matter. Everyone who purchased this game is capable of clearing everything here. It may come easier to some, but a positive attitude, leadership and dedication are the only things you need to complete anything this game has to offer.

Time is irrelevant. When you're playing an MMO, everything is made to take a lot of time, one way or another. Getting proper teamwork down will take lot's of it, but that's ok. At the end of the day, win or lose, isn't the comradery with you teammates the important thing? If you don't have time for practice and learning, what do you have time for? As someone else pointed out, I'm probably just being overly-whimsical, but I think in regard to this game, it works.

[Litre]

you are assuming that there are people who literally are incapable of completing content. And I can't agree with that, ever.

Yoshi has said about 5% of players have even cleared T5, even if it's 6-7 now, who knows how many have tried and given up or are still stuck on even older content such as Primal EXs etc... I'm not saying these players are mentally incapable of completing the content, I'm saying they don't have either the time, dedication or motivation to complete some of the content, the way it is as released.


But to that you say:

If you don't have time for practice and learning, what do you have time for? As someone else pointed out, I'm probably just being overly-whimsical, but I think in regard to this game, it works.

The whole game and MMOs are moving towards the direction of catering to players who don't have "as much" time for practicing, many of us are seeing these players leave, they are frustrated because they only have 1-2 hours to play a day and all they do is hit the wall that is Titan EX or whatever.

In regards to the game, it's not working, maybe it's less apparent on your server, I don't know - or you have "sample bias" meaning you're in a good FC or LS with other skilled players who enjoy the game as it is. I used to play more, but as work picked up I've joined more casual LSes, and am seeing many players leave for other games, so are many others, that's why I'm so adamant about these issues.

I just hate hearing elitists, say "this game is easier, just get better, practice, find a static", they are completely oblivious to other peoples' circumstances. It's frustrating for them, not fun, and they have no motivation because after they beat it, there's just more frustration waiting for them. But Yoshi put the main storyline content behind this difficulty wall, so they are forced into it. We realize they can only make content so fast, given their resources, so why not re-purpose existing older content so it's within reach of casual players? Echo was a start, but it was a lazy nerf, it doesn't address a lot, there's a lot more balancing they could be doing there.

Though they are on a good track, I really like the sightseeing log and such, gives them more casual things to tide them over.

[Clavaat]

The whole game and MMOs are moving towards the direction of catering to players who don't have "as much" time for practicing, many of us are seeing these players leave, they are frustrated because they only have 1-2 hours to play a day and all they do is hit the wall that is Titan EX or whatever.

I can understand that, to a point. However, I feel like these players have a problem with pacing themselves, and being realistic with their goals. For example, I know I come home and maybe have 5 hours to play before I need to go to bed. Life happens, and I know I have to do laundry one day, cook another, etc. So let's say the time goes down to 2 hours. Being aware that Titan EX is a difficult challenge, I know that I probably would be trying the rest of my time to get it down. Do I want to use that time for practice, or try something else, and wait for a day when I have more time to sit and really get it down? You have to take some personal responsibility into mind into what will realistically happen during your playtime.

In regards to the game, it's not working, maybe it's less apparent on your server, I don't know - or you have "sample bias" meaning you're in a good FC or LS with other skilled players who enjoy the game as it is. I used to play more, but as work picked up I've joined more casual LSes, and am seeing many players leave for other games, so are many others, that's why I'm so adamant about these issues.

That's very possible. Pretty much everyone I am involved with is generally satisfied with the pacing of the game, be they "casual" or "hardcore" (mind you, I really hate these terms, because they are too black and white). I can see it from your point of view though. Early on in my FC/LS lifespan I had a lot of issues keeping players interested and active. However, it has gotten much better, as I chose to look for people who I knew would keep playing. This included newer players, who I helped get caught up to speed. I would sum it up to growing pains; as the game and community grows and solidifies, the experience will be more positive overall. Many people joined early and quit, and I can't necessarily blame the reasons you have provided for this to be case. I know it's normally scoffed at, but I think we'll really just have to see after the first expansion what people are still thinking. Maybe a lot of players would come back, regardless of drastic changes in the difficulty curve. Maybe they won't.

Either way, I don't want you to take this disagreement as disrespect on my part. I respect your opinion and the time you've taken to flesh it out, along with the original OP. Judging by the amount of interest this thread has garnered (and how few people actually seem to agree with me), it's very possible you're right and I'm wrong here (though, again, that's very black and white). I'd like to think I'd support this game either direction it goes in the future, simply because I've made a lot of friends and am still having a lot of fun.

[Gormogon]

snip

I would like to add to that. I can have all the time in the world, but I'm not gonna give up, abandon, seclude myself, and/or replace the people I play with just to join a group capable of doing and gaining the best "digital" loot the game has to offer because it isn't possible with the people I do play with. I did it in WoW and by the end of the month I realized that it was not worth it.

Personally I would rather use that time I have enjoying it with the people I play with regardless of their skill level and if I have so much extra time when they are not around then I'll use it elsewhere such as playing another game on my PC, my handhelds, or on my consoles until the people I play with want to content. Especially when MMO's end-game content is secluded to a number of players and lockouts.

Yet the way I handle my downtime is not the same for other players. Clavaat's expectations, as well as others here in this thread, of what players should do just to experience end-game is an unrealistic one when it comes to what the majority will actually do. Players "can" potentially do it but you "can" expect just as many hardcore elitist to downgrade their gear and remove the echo buff as a group to keep content hard for them. The norm reaction has been present since the very day MMO's were accessible and I too have taken that approach before if not I would still be playing Ragnarok Online.

During downtime players would rather take their group of friends and seek out another experience since they have been blocked from experiencing content or can't experience content anymore until the following week. In the case of FFXIV ARR and the old FC I was in players would log off to play LoL, Smite, Diablo 3, check out other MMO's such as TESO, Black Desert, and enjoy Wildstar to the point that they switched over since Coil was roadblock and the 2-3 month wait for major patches and the content that it offer was not appealing to them.

I know some people will want to believe that it is impossible to please everyone. Sure you wont appeal to 100% yet that shouldn't mean that one should give up trying. A consistent schedule that delivers equally rich and diverse content that is appealing to as many players as possible is better than a schedule that only appeals to a specific demograph and tries to slowly branch out to the rest with no rewards and goals.

[Clavaat]

In the case of FFXIV ARR and the old FC I was in players would log off to play LoL, Smite, Diablo 3, check out other MMO's such as TESO, Black Desert, and enjoy Wildstar to the point that they switched over since Coil was roadblock and the 2-3 month wait for major patches and the content that it offer was not appealing to them.

They would have done that anyway, though. Look, I've done my time with FFXI, and while I don't regret it, I truly spent way too much time playing. To the point that it was borderline unhealthy. I would play when I was offered other games and RL things to do. When I approached FFXIV, I realized that I could get a lot done in not a lot of time, thus making it easier to pace myself and balance what I wanted to do with my RL schedule. I don't have a "hardcore" amount of time to play this game, but I am satisfied logging on and practicing with my LS/FC for a little while on scheduled days. After that, there are other things I could do, and I often do, but I somehow also find time to play other games in my backlog, catch up on shows I enjoy, see movies, hang out with friends, etc. If FFXIV became or becomes too much like FFXI, I would probably have to leave simply because I don't want that again. And I think, through the years, other people have realized that's not what they want either. They know that MMO's are a commitment and welcome a more relaxed commitment that allows them to play other games and do other things.

[Melithea]

Ok sure, the main flaw with this post's reasoning is that it ignores TIME

I haven't ignored time. I brought it up in a different post on page 72.

Now, should 100% of players be able to kill Twin today? Some posters in this thread seem to think yes. Yoshi says no. If they wanted 100% of players to have downed Twintania today, they would have continued to increase the echo buff, which has been proven effective in increasing the number of players who kill her. So basically, what you're asking for here already exists. You just want it to happen faster than the Producer does.

Not completely true, the OP points to many mechanics, we are using Titan EX landslide and Twintania divebombs to point out that insta-kill mechanics negate any ease introduced by overgearing content.

It's indisputable that Titan EX and Twintania are both easier now than they were on release, even without changing their hardest mechanics. The easing hasn't been negated, it just hasn't been applied 100%, either.

Here's the problem, it's not balanced in this way, the mechanics are the primary determining factor in victory, and always will be, years after content release unless they fix insta-kill, miss a divebomb, you wipe your party, end of story.

This isn't even true today. I've seen lots of people screw up divebombs without wiping the party. I've also seen the OT get landslided off the platform during heart phase, before the first adds and the party still won on that attempt. Stop pretending things are insurmountable obstacles just because they can't be ignored with a Cure II.

So I'll tell you what's not fun, being elitist and subjecting casual players to the same arrogant standards you have for game difficulty and assuming because it's fun for you, that if they just worked harder they'd experience the fun that you experience. I'm sorry it doesn't work that way, they are just getting frustrated and giving up and quitting, sure some players improve but that takes dedication, time, practice, etc... Not something casual players usually have the time for.

If you had read any of my posts you would have known better than to say this. I've played heavily since Closed Beta. My first Twin kill was on April 25th, which was patch 2.25. I still haven't cleared Turn 6 (no group). Stick to addressing my arguments instead of attacking me, because you clearly know nothing about me.

From page 67:

Just to make this perfectly clear: I'm not trolling and I'm not even "on the other side of the argument". I very deliberately staked out neutral ground and positioned myself as a non-hardcore, non-elitist who hasn't even cleared T6. My purpose here is to figure out exactly what changes people think need to be made. Because any changes made are obviously going to affect me, too. That's why I keep challenging people to be more clear, more specific, more detailed, and pointing out problems with their answers. It helps them refine their arguments.