Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Kuwagami]

OP has a lot of true words.

Firstly, the part on mechanics :
I dare challenge anyone to tell me that what he said is false. In the entire game, there is nothing that can't be done at minimal ilevel (done with devs team sure, but they're still humans who just happen to know perfectly the gimmicks) and without echo. The only mean of ilevel is to get enough dps to get the fight done.

As a matter of fact, T6,T7 and even T8 have all been done with under i95 on average by super hardcore players (T6 and T7 by more average people now with same ilevel), which leads me to an estimation of i100 roughly for T9's minimum requirement. Which means anything above i105 (let's get a good error margin) is irrelevant. You do not need it. You just need to know the mechanics, and you'll faceroll the fight.

And yet, T5, with i96+ and 15% echo (leading to i115 at least in effect)is still a road block. Titan Ex, with 25% echo (i125+) is still a road block. And you could have 100% echo, they would still be a roadblock (around i230...).
(I took HP values as a basis, as 20 ilevel add around 1k HP for tanks, and they have around 7k at 90, 8k at i110)

All is do-it-or-break-it, and it becomes boring after 8 month.

Also, the groups.

Am I really the only one to find the 4/8/24 strict teams boring ?

Am I the only one wanting to go in coil with 10, 12 or even 20 people if I like ? Just give the regular 2 chests for the whole group and that's all. I want to enjoy the game with friends, not killing boring stuff with 7 other people only.
Example : FC's size. They are either 8-men, 16, 24 or enormous HUBs. There is no need of in-between. And people don't want in-between sizes.

Ever been to Brayflox HM? (What a stupid question, of course you have, almost everyone has). Ever been to Brayflox HM with a party whose iLvls are only ~60-65? Probably not. Let me tell you, it's a drastically different experience. Of the 2.2 dungeons, Brayflox HM is easily the hardest when 'barely geared'. However, go in with a higher item level party though and the entire thing loses any sense of difficulty whatsoever. You can ignore 90% of the details in each boss fight, as they just become "Well, we can just DPS race this shit".

meh. The only dungeon with some sense of "difficult" dps check is Haukke HM. Brayflox in i60-65 team is just as easy as in i90+. The only change is the loss of SR possibility, and the hardest boss is sadly enough the 2nd one.

inb4 : "but the last bomb is..." nope. LB it, and bye-bye dungeon done. with iL60 you have LB2 since a long time when you come to it

[muwa]

So this is what he wants I guess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p_wjSMtAbw

Patchwerk is actually as scripted as FFXIV's bosses, you know exactly what will happen and when.
It was also an entry level boss for the instance (or wing) so having it as a gear check and less mechanics-based made sence.

You should look at more recent wow bosses if you want a more balanced view on randomness vs mechanics.

[ShinkuTachi]

The main problem I have with the "team rope jumping" mechanic or the scripted mechanic is that it really doesn't give much room to improvise or come up with varying strategies. It's like a couple of groups get the win, word (and videos) gets around about how they got it, then everyone expects you to follow that strategy to the letter.

Basically becoming: make it to a boss/major battle, have a possibly temporary period of awe, practice the script, get the clear, make it to the next boss/major battle, repeat.

There is no mystery, there is no unexpected, and there is no need to be on your toes. The only real variance comes from pushing a phase too slow or too fast; or maybe one or two other ways groups have found to deal with a phase.

While I personally still have fun, I can see why this would really get to many people.

~

During the Nagoya Producer Letter Live, Yoshi-P said “the fights are scripted because if we made the moves random and, say, Titan uses weight of the land 4 times in a row or something that'd be unfair, right?”

Huh... there is a world between 100% scripted and 100% random.
In v1, Ifrit's behaviour was globally random, but he couldn't use the same attack twice in a row. Here, problem solved. Can't he remember even that?

I like this point. Why hasn't this post been given more "Likes!"

[Garlyle]

meh. The only dungeon with some sense of "difficult" dps check is Haukke HM. Brayflox in i60-65 team is just as easy as in i90+. The only change is the loss of SR possibility, and the hardest boss is sadly enough the 2nd one.

inb4 : "but the last bomb is..." nope. LB it, and bye-bye dungeon done. with iL60 you have LB2 since a long time when you come to it

Haukke HM has a difficult DPS check, yes, but DPS checks aren't even what I was referring to.

When you have the HP to not be killed by Ceruleum explosions, and a healer can just safely healtank adds during 1st and 2nd bosses, because the battle ends in 2 minutes, then it doesn't matter anymore. When you can kill the adds spawned during the third boss so fast that they don't overlap with the bombs, then it gets way easier, because there's no panic moment of trying to clear bombs while being in danger of getting killed by the adds. There's a tipping point where the mechanical details of the battles simply become "eh, whatever," and then it's little different from the stuff you face just wandering Eorzea.

And again, it's fine that this exists, but if that was everything, the game would quickly lose any sense of challenge and just become faceroll - so it can't remain this way for all content.

To me, an ideal is both column A and B, which is what we already have. Several mechanics of Twintania remain deadly. Others, the more gear/echo you have going on, they're 'eased up'. You likely can't straight up ignore them, but you have more room for error. The OP mentioned Ultima HM, and that's a good example - how 'on the ball' everyone needs to be with the balls changes as you continue gearing up/gaining echo, but you still can't just ignore them.

[ZReport]

Thing about the OP... to be fair, we have a lot of places like that.

Ever been to Brayflox HM? -snip-

Agreed. Mainly because I've been to Brayflox HM at the iLevel you suggested before along with 3 others of similar iLvl. And we won without any wipes at any point, though it was a much longer run than a very slow City of Amdapor run. It simply goes back to the statement the JP blogger made on a lesser scale -- mechanics, player coordination and actual player proficiency in their job will dictate their level of success. I have no doubt in my mind if the other three players were bad at their job then we would have never won, even if we were all i70 instead. To that end i70 is the obvious cutoff point despite it being tuned to i55.

--

I just recently got back into starting to do endgame (aka catching up) and I must say this. The OP is spot on. To preface during 2.0/2.1 I played on my legacy character and got as high as T4 with semi-constant winning basis with my static. No T5 up to that point, no Primals (big mistake on my behalf). Around the time when 2.2 came out, I restarted on a new character to attempt to fully learn the mechanics behind playing WAR (as well as being named after an all so famous Dragon Uppercut). I then realized what this JP blogger realized -- beyond your own personal proficiency, this game is geared around very unforgiving mechanics. To that end, it simply does not matter if you have Echo, or at a much higher iLvl than what's needed. You simply require 6-7 other people who can successfully perform their roles with any given mechanic thrown at you.

I just yesterday cleared Titan EX, but not without going through countless attempts (about 80 if you were wondering). I picked up exactly what to do in about 6 attempts, and it took me another 5 attempts to fully tune myself to the tune of perfect tank swapping and also tank swapping with Echo over 15% (which can be a problem). Then another couple of attempts to understand what to do during Gaoler phase (in the parties that could actually GET to Gaolers). I'd like to say as tank I fully mastered the fight relatively easy and could have done it as soon as it was released in 2.1. However, this does not speak well at all for everyone else, mainly the DPS. Countless times people would get knocked off or even take full stacked weights of land right to the dome, killing them instantly. These were people of varying iLvl, people who were sub i90, people who were reaching or just beyond i100, people geared in Levi gear (hence beating Titan already), people who were geared post T6/T7 and everything inbetween. It's more so depressing when you realize that Titan does the exact same routine every single time, the only real randomization being who gets targeted for landslides if DPS are in the process of breaking others out of jails after Upheaval. Despite this, people still get knocked right off/killed every single time, usually to the exact same exact mechanic that killed them in the previous fight. To this, some are actually happy that they get MORE Echo after wiping. Why? Echo doesn't help you avoid taking a landslide to the face, you'll continue to lose despite whatever Echo you get. After tens and tens more of fights, I finally won yesterday in a party which averaged about i93 overall (under Echo of 10%). The first two attempts we lost actually being my own fault in the end (incorrect tank swaps making the arena lopsided for 5-way landslides across bombs).

As soon as I did my first couple of fights, I proclaimed to my girlfriend next to me, "this is now my favorite fight in the game." Simply because how unrelenting it is as well as the fact that it completely ignores Echo applications and otherwise makes the fight harder with applications over 15%. It's the only fight (so far, for me, I know about Levi EX and T5-9) that forces everyone to play their roles under an unforgiving mechanic that completely removes you from the fight. I still believe that it will be my favorite fight after the fact as well. To this end, I can't wait to do further content beyond this point, as I'll find some of it very enjoyable. To the reverse, I agree with the OP in so far that every fight shouldn't be so extremely unforgiving. There should be a few fights that at least allow for some sort of recovery phase instead of "one death we're done."

[Richiealvian]

Personally, I find the difficulty level very satisfying. It's not impossible, but it is not easy. It however, requires commitment to learn and to cooperate with 7 other people, so team growth > personal growth.
The curve at the moment, I find to be really perfect. You get to beat t5, and then in t6 you realized that the playing field has changed drastically. Basically coil 1 had a pretty much static boss positioning, while the later turns introduced awareness from all directions, not one at a time. It was an amazing surprise and difficulty curve for me, and I'm really enjoying it. In case you are wondering, I've gotten to the last phase of T9, I'm in no way a very top-end player nor a very casual player. I raid 2-3 times a week, about an hour each session.

The thing that I find might alleviate all this problem is if high level bosses don't drop even higher ilvl, because the mass WANTS epic gear as much as the hardcores do. Now if those higher level gear is gated behind a hard encounter, upon which drops higher ilvl items which in the most part will only serve to make the currently hard enemy which has already been defeated easier.. There is little motivation for the non-hardcore mass to do it, is there? I think Animus is heading to the right direction, letting people with inferior skills/ability to commit because of time/commitment restrictions have a shot at epic loot, BUT with effort.

In fact, while not everyone likes their challenges like mine, I will absolutely hate myself if I cannot clear the current content before the echo is applied. I don't really like the echo.. that adrenaline rush when you first downed twintania is a feeling like no other.
That sense of accomplishment is what keeps me playing, however for people who don't like the challenge and wants to play for fun in their own respect, at the moment there is very little to collect. I think this will all change once mini games are released.

if anything, my idea of making the endgame bosses amazing is to make them give out "Weathered" high allagan weapons, which has similar potency to what the masses can use, which will be upgraded for "almost" free in the next patch when harder bosses come. That way, it rewards hardcore players and masses alike, because the mass feel they can be equally geared without playing hardcore, and the hardcore feel that they get something to show for their effort. Or even just vanity items instead of even mroe p[owerful gear.

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't mean inferior skills. I mean not as quick to learn and naturally respond to mechanics because if someone is not skilled at this game who would've known if he is a world famous chef, or programmer, or CEO even?

[PotatoTree]

I do not agree with this guy, and I think he is everything wrong with the game's population.

He basically wants crystal tower. Where "oh you messed up? Well we'll just raise you and we're good as new. la de dah". Thats BORING. Challenging mechanics where if you mess it up you DIE are fun. Because when you win, it doesn't feel like you just spent time in a long ass grind, it feels like you deserved it.

And people are complaining that you can do coil in lower tier gear if you can deal with the mechanics? READ THAT AS YOU CAN DO CONTENT IF YOU ARE SKILLED, NOT IF YOU ARE BUFFED OUT ON GEAR. Jesus, imagine if you were playing Starcraft and you started with double the workers because you had more "gear" compared to another player. NO. Ideally the game should be 100% skill based. Do you know how boring T4 is now that you can just faceroll it with crazy gear? Or T1 even. And this guy prides T1 and T4 as being awesome and T5 as bad because you actually need to do something in the turn? Is this a joke? Is this what mainstream players really want?

And he wants tokens for dungeon entries? Have any of you guys actually played 1.0 ffxiv? Collecting tapers and stuff for iffy was BORING. SO GODDAM BORING. Practising in coil is FUN. Because if you are not winning, it means it is HARD, so when you do win, you'll feel a sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT.

Please take your easy mode content and shove it elsewhere. Do not ruin the game for the rest of us who actually enjoy a challenge.

[Edgedy]

This week, I ended up being in charge of the raid, I normally main tank or off tank as necessary and we had a problem. Two individuals who were new to raiding and understood the fight came along with us and when it came time to work on the content we were having a hard time on turn 6.

Keeping in mind that it has been approximately 3 months since Coil came out, we have certain expectations of the players involved. So now you're faced with a dilemma and you want the people to progress and help them clear content as it helps the overall atmosphere of the FC.

But the fact is in these heavy mechanic fights... one mistake and it's almost always over. Someone doesn't get honey, chains aren't broken. I do not disagree entirely with the OP because the simple matter is this is a game, and it needs to be fun and inclusive.

If SE were to make modifications to the current raid, echo, new gear, there will be a similar stop gap of population incapable of clearing the raids even when 3.0 comes out. Because as Pharos Sirius demostrated, more DPS in a lot of cases makes the fight even harder.

Raiding groups are starting to have similar problems on Turn 7 where they have to coordinate the shrieks to end around 60% before pushing phase. The point is, that this is lacking in fun factor of raiding and they want to do more mechanics, not less going forward. It's a recipe for destruction for the population of the game.

I look at Crystal Tower as 'fun' mechanics that are challenging. (Maze of the Ancients might be more appropriate to call it.) And I hope that 2.3 introduces more of the same but there is a risk going forward that inclusive game play requires the ability to attract new players.

Perhaps it's a foregone conclusion, as moving forward Square Enix has an entire population in China to tap for finances, but they will likely be alienating their Western players as new MMO's come out that challenge the simple conformity that exists within the game. I am hopeful however that now that 'true' 24 man raiding is unlocked there is hope for a true proper high end difficulty with it and will likely be looking forward to having 8 man vs 24 man raiding content. 24 man Titan would be insane.

[Richiealvian]

I do not agree with this guy, and I think he is everything wrong with the game's population.

He basically wants crystal tower. Where "oh you messed up? Well we'll just raise you and we're good as new. la de dah". Thats BORING. Challenging mechanics where if you mess it up you DIE are fun. Because when you win, it doesn't feel like you just spent time in a long ass grind, it feels like you deserved it.

And people are complaining that you can do coil in lower tier gear if you can deal with the mechanics? READ THAT AS YOU CAN DO CONTENT IF YOU ARE SKILLED, NOT IF YOU ARE BUFFED OUT ON GEAR. Jesus, imagine if you were playing Starcraft and you started with double the workers because you had more "gear" compared to another player. NO. Ideally the game should be 100% skill based. Do you know how boring T4 is now that you can just faceroll it with crazy gear? Or T1 even. And this guy prides T1 and T4 as being awesome and T5 as bad because you actually need to do something in the turn? Is this a joke? Is this what mainstream players really want?

And he wants tokens for dungeon entries? Have any of you guys actually played 1.0 ffxiv? Collecting tapers and stuff for iffy was BORING. SO GODDAM BORING. Practising in coil is FUN. Because if you are not winning, it means it is HARD, so when you do win, you'll feel a sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT.

Please take your easy mode content and shove it elsewhere. Do not ruin the game for the rest of us who actually enjoy a challenge.

As much as I'd love to say you are correct, however a game is entirely dependant on the people paying for it. It would be fun for you and me, but for most people, let's take for example if my dad were to play this game (he used to play a lot of games back then) he would get stuck in coils for months, maybe years because of the amount of time spent committed to other things. Not everyone can play 3+ hours everyday, and they are contributing just as much as you and me in terms of game subscription.

And also beating the highest content to see the story or simply wanting to win it one day is something that the masses want, too.

It is sad however, that if those players don't get what they want they will simply quit. You might say "good riddance", you don't want to put in the effort but want the rewards, now shoo! but for Square Enix it is unfortunately not so!

I personally think between hardcore and casual content they are doing very amazingly in terms that if you are stuck, you have the echo next patch to look forward to. You also have non-battle or easy battle content such as treasure hunt or grinds like animus. What I think is needed is simply more happy content, like mini games.

[Gormogon]

I can guarantee you this game won't last if they keep this up. I for one have already made a decision that if when expansion comes out and its more of the same shit, I quit. I don't talk for everyone but I am pretty sure a lot of people won't be far behind. The expansion will be what defines this game and its direction.

Totally agree. The current position FFXIV ARR is in regards to end game is the same as WoW with Cataclysm and MoP. Cataclysm and MoP has hurt WoW the most.

While it will all depend on the individual servers populace. Free companies falling apart and players becoming more and more anti-social will end up the norm as difficulty keeps increasing.