Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Melithea]

Could a EQ game even survive anymore?

Everquest and Everquest 2 both survive to this day, sort of.

It's really hard to find recent and accurate numbers, but from a little investigating EQ active subscription numbers look something like this.

2004: 550,000
2007: 175,000
2010: 100,000
2014: ???

By way of comparison, FFXI had 350,000 in 2010 and XIV: ARR currently has more subscriptions than EQ ever had. Now, I'm all for ARR becoming more fun, but people saying that they miss EQ and if ARR doesn't return to the days of EQ it's going to DIE~! really need to realize that EQ was a different game from a different time, and if we're talking from a purely financial/subscription perspective, SE sure as hell doesn't need to take any advice from Everquest.

By the way, people have suggested skillchains and stuff like that be brought back. Maybe not in this thread, but people have been asking for things like that here and there since launch. I don't remember if there was ever an official answer, but this strikes me as the perfect example of the kind of solution that it might be a really good idea to throw back out there and blow it up until it can't be ignored.

[Grizzlebeard]

By way of comparison, FFXI had 350,000 in 2010 and XIV: ARR currently has more subscriptions than EQ ever had.

Try and remember that EQ existed in an MMO vacuum. Hardly anyone in the world knew what an MMORPG was let alone played one. The potential subscription base for MMOs back then was significantly smaller than now and Sony Online Entertainment (SoE) were never amazing at promotion, or Verant for that matter. By that standard, FFXIV's subscription level is laughable compared to that of WoW's. When EQ: Next launches we'll see a more realistic indication of what EQ subscription numbers would have been in the current marketplace.

SE sure as hell doesn't need to take any advice from Everquest.

Were it not for EQ there would have been no WoW, no FFXI, and ultimately no FFXIV. As for taking advice, FFXI was so heavily influenced by EQ it's hilarious to feel S-E have nothing to learn from SoE.

[Melithea]

As for taking advice, FFXI was so heavily influenced by EQ it's hilarious to feel S-E have nothing to learn from SoE.

And in terms of playerbase XIV is more successful than XI ever was.

I never said that!!

Then I wasn't quoting you? Consider it a paraphrase of the combined positions of "Everyone is getting bored and leaving" and "This is why the original MMOs were more fun/better than ARR".

When EQ: Next launches we'll see a more realistic indication of what EQ subscription numbers would have been in the current marketplace.

Yes, but at the moment this is pure speculation.

Honestly, I thought leveling in ARR should have taken longer than it did, for example. Not as long as it did in FFXI though, which I started playing when Rise of the Zilart was released and a year later my highest job was only level ~55 (IIRC). And I was an avid player. Can you imagine ARR right now if the average player today was under level 36?

Let's be really, really careful with the nostalgia goggles and stay focused on ways to add depth to the battle system. Your masochistic romanticism over corpse runs and leveling down would drive off more players than Titan EX ever could. Yes, the community left might be a little closer, and that would be a natural result of having a much smaller community. But at what cost?

[Rosy]

It's really hard to find recent and accurate numbers, but from a little investigating EQ active subscription numbers look something like this.

2004: 550,000
2007: 175,000
2010: 100,000
2014: ???

By way of comparison, FFXI had 350,000 in 2010 and XIV: ARR currently has more subscriptions than EQ ever had. Now, I'm all for ARR becoming more fun, but people saying that they miss EQ and if ARR doesn't return to the days of EQ it's going to DIE~! really need to realize that EQ was a different game from a different time, and if we're talking from a purely financial/subscription perspective, SE sure as hell doesn't need to take any advice from Everquest. By the way, people have suggested skillchains and stuff like that be brought back. Maybe not in this thread, but people have been asking for things like that here and there since launch. I don't remember if there was ever an official answer, but this strikes me as the perfect example of the kind of solution that it might be a really good idea to throw back out there and blow it up until it can't be ignored.

I never said that!!

[Velhart]

Could a EQ game even survive anymore?

Serious question and I know the term "survive" is a loaded one because in theory a game could survive just fine with 100,000 players if it was cost effective.

But can a MMO survive the budget required to make them nowadays on the EQ model. I've skimmed this thread for a few days and people bring up the MMOs of old, but could those MMOs of old survive this new era of the genre, or is everyone just thinking wistfully of the past?

Its not to say a game couldn't succeed using EQ as inspiration for their game play. With how MMO's are today, if you are a developer making that game, you kind of have to take with a grain of salt that this particular taste in game play you are only going to have a niche community, which will likely compose mostly of hardcore MMO vets looking for a familiar experience with the past. You are definitely not appealing to a large scale. So you have to make a budget and a sub/F2P system that is very well built and makes sense. Investors usually don't want to put money into that type of game unless it is a more known IP. Basically don't have high expectations unless the developers found a way to keep it traditional and revolutionize the aspect, which is doubtful.

[Zarzak]

Could a EQ game even survive anymore?

Serious question and I know the term "survive" is a loaded one because in theory a game could survive just fine with 100,000 players if it was cost effective.

But can a MMO survive the budget required to make them nowadays on the EQ model. I've skimmed this thread for a few days and people bring up the MMOs of old, but could those MMOs of old survive this new era of the genre, or is everyone just thinking wistfully of the past?

EQ is still going strong. Last 2 expansions sucked I'll admit (they tried out the "modern" MMO style of 3 month release intervals... it was horrible) But the expansion releasing this Fall is supposed to go back to the 1 per year release model.

[Iriadysa]

You know what's the most recurring fallacy in this thread? This:

"You have to memorize rotations! Memorizing is not difficulty".

Nope, you all are wrong. You don't have to memorize anything at all. In fact, the game is so soft on everyone that it allows you to either react or memorize.

The more I read this thread the more I'm convinced about my opinions on the ones defending this shitty concept. Which, btw, you aren't as many as you believe you are. Page after page it's the same 4 or 5 faces repeating the same arguments and ignoring the actual crux of the problem, which I quote from 7 pages back (and which I have brought numerous times as well, always to be completely ignored):

Was reading back and picked up on this, I think it's a good opportunity to summarize the concepts at work here again.

First of all, it depends what you mean by "overgear content". It's already true that the content in this game becomes much easier with item level increases, so it's already possible to reduce difficulty by overgearing the content. So when people say they want to be more able to overgear content, the implication is that they want to be able to circumvent the challenge of a fight with gear (think killing Demon Wall before the hornets could spawn, back when they still did). Then, in the same breath, they say they want fights with more depth, more fun, more interaction, and more random play. To this I say, which is it? So far, no proposed solution addresses both of these desires. In fact, as far as I can tell every solution makes one of these problems or the other even worse.

The most popular suggestion is making fights "random". For one, this only creates the illusion of choice compared to the "scripted" battles we have now. You'll still react the same way to the same attack, you'll just be doing it in a different order. Additionally, this will make the battles harder for people who can't dodge/react to the current system where you literally know what is coming next. The only way to avoid this is to make failure less "punishing", and this is tied to the idea that gear should be the primary determining factor in victory. Now, you don't have to dodge. Just heal through it and do whatever you want. Suddenly, no depth, no challenge, no fun, no better off than we were before, just different for the sake of being different.

People have come up with some very creative ways to randomize fights. In my opinion, none of them actually solve the proposition of the OP and the competing interests of the different groups of players.

The OP also wants to reintroduce attempt lock-outs on content as opposed to the clear lock-outs we now have. While this may free up the developers to make battles less mechanics driven as the OP suggests, there are two issues. 1. People complain about attempt lock-outs just as much as they do about clear lock-outs. 2. Attempt lock-out systems worked because loot followed the rare drop system rather than our guaranteed drop system. This is another one of those ugly unintended consequences I keep bringing up.

Do you see now why it's not so simple? This idea of "Let me overgear content and let me do it NAO!" would solve one problem (casuals feeling left out). But it would also completely ignore another problem (recognizing player skill) while making yet another one worse (these battles are no fun).

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

ARR follows WoW's model almost exactly. It is accessible, in the early levels, everything is charted out and spoon fed to you in rapid succession. When you finally get to endgame, it layers on difficulty by being punishing if you don't follow the exact scripted steps that the game designers intend for you to take.

I think the following sums up what is wrong with this model, from one of the people who designed it:



ARR tries to artificially infuse challenge and longevity into this model by implementing punishing group memorization tests.

But the flaws in cloning WoW are fundamental, and simply making Titan EX or T5 easier won't fix them.

The game needs challenge... REAL challenge based on DEPTH (meaningful decision making) rather than mere EXECUTION (group jump-rope)

We can agree with the quoted WoW text. And I wish people understood that the worshiped OP does not advocate for this. Whoever thinks it does has not understood anything.
You, however, are performing a brutal fallacious trick here: the quoted text has nothing to do with your conclusion.

I recommend a career in politics if you are not already considering it.

[Grizzlebeard]

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

There's nothing to address. There should be no requirement for old content to remain current. If you overgear something so significantly then you've clearly already earned your spurs and shouldn't have to keep jumping through the same instagib hoops such as Landslide.

[Litre]

You don't have to memorize anything at all. In fact, the game is so soft on everyone that it allows you to either react or memorize.

No, you don't have to memorize, but it sure helps a lot, because you're multi-tasking combat too. So if you know the next 3 moves that are coming up you can prepare for them and focus more on the combat.

Once again that comes down to bias, this may be easy for you, you are probably a very skilled player, but for many others they need to memorize at least the critical sections or they get overwhelmed.

Address that or stop crying, because in the end that's really what you are all doing when you decide to not answer this argument.

Ok sure, the main flaw with this post's reasoning is that it ignores TIME

It's already true that the content in this game becomes much easier with item level increases, so it's already possible to reduce difficulty by overgearing the content.

Not completely true, the OP points to many mechanics, we are using Titan EX landslide and Twintania divebombs to point out that insta-kill mechanics negate any ease introduced by overgearing content. You can overgear all you want but one mistake by a party member and you're dead, iLvl 75 or 200. One of my central arguments is that on release of new content, these mechanics should insta-kill anyone, but after some time, gear should allow you to survive it. This requires balancing insta-kill mechanics to be just very high-damage mechanics - kills anyone at the intended iLvl, but almost kills anyone overgeared.

So when people say they want to be more able to overgear content, the implication is that they want to be able to circumvent the challenge of a fight with gear

Agreed, they want to circumvent challenge, what's wrong with that I ask? Why do games have an easy difficulty, normal and hard? Because some people don't like challenge, some people play RPGs and lvled up to 10+ what's needed for the boss so they can crush it, I'm sure you can think of a friend like that. We're not all hardcore gamers, some of us want to relax, and have fun and hang out with the community. Surely you must understand this, if FFXIV wants to keep its subscription numbers we need to keep those people around. They usually play less too, probably just reaching that content 3-4 months after its release, why not let them beat it more easily? This is not a race, let them run at their own pace, people need to stop thinking it's a race, it goes back to that WOW developer's post, this breeds a toxic community, which we have now.

The most popular suggestion is making fights "random". For one, this only creates the illusion of choice compared to the "scripted" battles we have now. You'll still react the same way to the same attack, you'll just be doing it in a different order. Additionally, this will make the battles harder for people who can't dodge/react to the current system where you literally know what is coming next. The only way to avoid this is to make failure less "punishing", and this is tied to the idea that gear should be the primary determining factor in victory. Now, you don't have to dodge. Just heal through it and do whatever you want. Suddenly, no depth, no challenge, no fun, no better off than we were before, just different for the sake of being different.

This here, is the biggest fallacy, this ties back to the issue of time, you are forgetting there are months between when content is released, and when gear catches up to allow them to survive high damage mechanics.

1. When content is released, the scripted mechanics are so punishing, they may as well be insta-kill, hardcore players, will need to dodge these or face a wipe, the game will be just as hard as it is now for newly released content. But there can also be random mechanics that do less-damage, the trick is a healthier balance between scripted mechanics and random attacks, now to hardcore players this balance doesn't matter, they are good enough to adapt. Challenge is the same, there's less you can memorize for, but more you can react to, I'd personally enjoy this and I know many others will too. The scripted/random mechanics are still the primary determining factor of the fight "for now (new content)"

2. Now as casual/mainstream players catch up, MONTHS LATER, gear wise they will have an easier time, allowing them to survive a few more mistakes, as time goes on, even the most casual players will stand a chance.


Here's the problem, it's not balanced in this way, the mechanics are the primary determining factor in victory, and always will be, years after content release unless they fix insta-kill, miss a divebomb, you wipe your party, end of story.


We are not asking for extremes, we are asking for balance, not make it 100% scripted or 100% random, allow mechanics attacks to scale slower than gear, so that gear can "eventually" ease the fight. So properly address easing the difficulty of fights, a blanket echo stat boost was just pure laziness and doesn't help as the OP pointed out.

This idea of "Let me overgear content and let me do it NAO!" would solve one problem (casuals feeling left out). But it would also completely ignore another problem (recognizing player skill) while making yet another one worse (these battles are no fun).

So coming back to this, nope, balanced content will be difficult upon release, and does not ignore the problem of "recognizing player skill", balanced content will also scale better with gear, so after a few months (TIME) maybe more, it will also address the problem of "casuals feeling left out".

And "battles are no fun"? Fun is subjective, fun is defeating something "the person playing" finds challenging, and what's not challenging to you may be challenging to others and fun for them. I played hardcore too once, I admit I had a pure definition of fun too, playing a game at the top-tier was exhilarating, challenging and victories were so much sweeter. I was arrogant too, I felt that, everyone should experience this awesome feeling, but as I talked to more and more people I found that lots of people were normal and had modest goals and enjoyed just crafting or slowly progressing. And the more I got to know them, the more I understood, that this game isn't accepting to these types of players.

So I'll tell you what's not fun, being elitist and subjecting casual players to the same arrogant standards you have for game difficulty and assuming because it's fun for you, that if they just worked harder they'd experience the fun that you experience. I'm sorry it doesn't work that way, they are just getting frustrated and giving up and quitting, sure some players improve but that takes dedication, time, practice, etc... Not something casual players usually have the time for.

[Clavaat]

-big snip-

I get what you're saying. I don't know if you have read what I've posted previously, but given everything you just said, I still can't agree with you. You are actually falling under the same issue that I'm seeing with those you call elitist; you are assuming that there are people who literally are incapable of completing content. And I can't agree with that, ever. Whether we're talking PUGs, or statics, it doesn't matter. Everyone who purchased this game is capable of clearing everything here. It may come easier to some, but a positive attitude, leadership and dedication are the only things you need to complete anything this game has to offer.

Time is irrelevant. When you're playing an MMO, everything is made to take a lot of time, one way or another. Getting proper teamwork down will take lot's of it, but that's ok. At the end of the day, win or lose, isn't the comradery with you teammates the important thing? If you don't have time for practice and learning, what do you have time for? As someone else pointed out, I'm probably just being overly-whimsical, but I think in regard to this game, it works.