Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Tsuga]

This posts highlights my EXACT problems with endgame in FFXIV.

I love this game, and have been playing it nearly non-stop since 1.0's launch, but I find that the harder the content I dip my feet into - the less fun that I have. The exception to this is when I get to play content entirely with my FC, but those chances are few and far between considering that so many of them have dropped off or log in less and less often. I also find that I'm logging in less often the further we get away from patches, since I've heard nothing but horror stories about the endgame content that I haven't participated in.

I want to run harder dungeons because the idea of difficult content excites me, but the fact that everything is mechanics driven isn't difficult, it's just a hurdle to jump over. If you go in blind you don't know the hurdle is there, so most of the time you have to look up a tutorial online, which defeats the thrill of the hurdle, and then it's just a matter of going through the dungeon over and over again - all while being ditched, belittled by others, and becoming more and more disheartened - until you get really good at jumping over that hurdle, then once you get good at jumping over the hurdle it then becomes boring, and tedious when other people don't know how to jump over the hurdle, so now you're on the other end of that negative relationship between the people who know how to do the content and the people who don't. IMO the structure of the content and boss fights makes playing the content a negative experience when you aren't playing with close friends, when it should be exciting and fun for everybody, experienced or not.

[Exstal]

Gormogon can't make a convincing argument. It's almost like it's trolling.

[Yukiko]

Keep saying what you like, since 1.x i lost a lot friends because this game is too grindy and now even the last few will leave or are thinking to leave soon...
If you like the game as it is, fine for me! We play for fun and sorry, it is not making fun for a lot people!

I fear it was translation error and Yoshi-P havnt ment 30%, maybe he ment 0,03% drop... we will see soon!

[Seif]

FINAL FANTASY XI!

(I'm going to start a fire here by alerting all the trolls to the yard just by saying that game's name.)

In XI there were challenges of extreme difficulty.

However there were almost an endless way to overcome great challenges with horizontal progression.

Some would say that patience shouldn't be rewarded the same way twitch reaction skills are rewarded but I think a lot of the content that could be cleared with patience DID REQUIRE SKILL. It took a lot of time and dedication combined with long-term planning but you could gear yourself up to make the difference with full spell set and proper items and food.


XIV in it's current form doesn't offer options this way and I think it's most harmful when it comes to crafted gear and food. They made those completely useless to the point where I wonder why do they even exist?

[Litre]

[B]... you could gear yourself up to make the difference with full spell set and proper items and food.


XIV in it's current form doesn't offer options this way and I think it's most harmful when it comes to crafted gear and food. They made those completely useless to the point where I wonder why do they even exist?

Exactly, you hit the nail on the head, the fights need to be more balanced between dodging mechanics and gear.

Insta-death mechanics were also more balanced in other games, they were designed to pretty much kill you if you were fighting at the intended level.


But! There was a caveat, because they didn't just kill you outright, it was possible to grind in the forest a bit, gain an extra 5 levels, perhaps buy an item that would allow you to resist some of the damage and re-attempt it. Was it easier? Sure, but you also worked harder and it took you longer to beat. In that sense I think it's balanced, now in an MMO, obviously the hardcore need a headstart, so the items and gear that would allow you to beat the fight more easily obviously shouldn't be released until months after.

And that's totally fine, the casual players are happy with the "horizontal progression", it at least gives them a round-about way to do it. Plus they don't have that much time to play, but at least if they know they are getting closer, they'll be interested.

So we have Animus and now Novus, now if an iLvl 100 item really made all the difference so players can beat Titan (many months after its release) then great, but unless that novus weapon comes with +25% earth elemental knockback resist, I don't think so - and making it totally RNG also made it less interesting for casual players.

[skaterger]

Insta kill or 1 shot mechanics are fun when done in moderation. Anyone that did Karazhan will definitely remember Aran's Flame Wreath (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=717CoVJ687M), brings back good memories . The difference though is that such mechanics were rare enough for people to take notice when it did happen whereas it is hugely overdone in ffxiv IMO. Take T7 for example, is it really necessary to have 4 insta kill mechanics in just 1 fight? (voice, shriek, petrifaction, renauld)?

I feel that for a lot of fights in coil, it is less about being good, but more of not being bad. You can be the best player in the world, but if one of your teammates stones the raid its a wipe. There's absolutely nothing you can do except watch helplessly as your team falls one after another. Even if the argument for gear invalidation is ignored, individual skill should play a more important part in determining if you can recover from a mistake. Just take T7 as an example, assuming we change cursed voice to reducing the hp of stoned individual to 1 instead of stoning that player, an extremely reactive whm with lightning reflexes can benediction a tank and that's where individual skill comes in to neutralize the mistakes of others.

Such mechanics also exacerbate fragmentation among the community. It leads to zero tolerance policy among players. I have personally witnessed it in all 3 statics that I've been in, as people play the finger pointing blame game. It makes the person who made the mistake feel bad when they are singled out, and if you are the one that made it, you will feel terrible because you caused everyone to waste the last 5-10 minutes of their time.

Thirdly, scripted mechanics are actually related very closely to insta kill mechanics if you think about it more deeply. If game mechanics are designed to kill you in 1 hit, there is absolutely no room for rng.. For example in T6, you absolutely need the boss to cast devour after honey glaze to remove the mark from the player. When all fights become like this, it becomes more of a game of memorization than a game of execution. I will be the first to admit that and totally agree that if you can execute, there is no need to memorize. But the longevity/replayability of a fight is compromised heavily when boss mechanics are set in stone. Just take a look at a guide for T9 as an example:

Fight start 00:00
Ravensclaw 00:06
Ravensclaw 00:17
Stardust 00:19
Ravensbeak 00:28
Red fragment hits 00:31
Ravensbeak hits 00:31
Raven Dive party 00:37
Iron Chariot 00:38
Thermionic Beam 00:43
Raven's Ascent 00:43
Raven Dive 00:45

And this goes all the way till 3 minutes into a fight. Imagine if the same abilities were retained, but they could be cast in a random order, within certain boundaries. It would not only force people to pay attention but also keep things interesting for a long time. It's a little like Diablo 2 where everytime you load a map its randomly generated, so every time you run the map its a different experience.

Now I'm definitely not saying that instant kill mechanics should be removed totally. Difficulty does not have to come from going from 100%-->0%. I hate to use Wow again as an example, but fights like Yogg Saron in Ulduar and Hex Lord in Zul' Aman were difficult and fun without being "All or nothing". Mix things around, have pvp fights, tank and spank fights, aoe fights, debuff fights and even 1 shot fights. Even if fights become harder due to more randomization, so what? I for one would embrace it.

[Zantetsuken]

ARR follows WoW's model almost exactly. It is accessible, in the early levels, everything is charted out and spoon fed to you in rapid succession. When you finally get to endgame, it layers on difficulty by being punishing if you don't follow the exact scripted steps that the game designers intend for you to take.

I think the following sums up what is wrong with this model, from one of the people who designed it:

Former Blizzard developer Mark Kern says that MMOs are now too easy and that World of Warcraft “ruined a genre”.

In a post on MMORPG, Kern – who left Blizzard to found Red 5 Studios – lamented the drive towards accessibility that he believes has turned most MMOs into indistinct and unchallenging races to their respective end games.

“Accessibility was the mantra when I was leading the World of Warcraft team,” he wrote.

This accessibility meant that players never had to think about what to do next, wrote Kern, and expansions hastened the simplification of the game.

“Quest trackers were added, and xp was increased so that it was easier to level through all the old content to get to the ‘new stuff’ of the expansion,” he wrote.

“Gear from the a new expansions first quests made raid gear from previous expansions a joke. And the level curve became faster and faster until we reached a point where everyone is just in a race to get to max level, and damn everything else in between.

“Why care about level 20 gear when you would blow by levels so fast it was obsolete before you even logged off for the night?” he asked.

But the accessibility push worked, and players arrived in their millions. However, Kern questioned whether it was actually worth it.

“Sometimes I look at WoW and think ‘What have we done?’,” he wrote.

“I think I know. I think we killed a genre.”

The lowering of the game’s difficulty curve was a particular problem as it robbed players of a sense of achievement, said Kern.

“When the bar is lowered so that everyone can reach max level quickly, it makes getting to max level the only sense of accomplishment in the game,” he wrote.

“We lose the whole journey in between, a journey that is supposed to feel fun and rewarding on its own. Nobody stops to admire a beautiful zone or listen to story or lore, because there is no time to do so.

“You are fed from a fire-hose of quests that you feel compelled to blaze through, whose content is so easy and quick to accomplish, that you are never in one place long enough to appreciate the incredible world around you.

“We feel bored by these quests, simply watching numbers on our quest trackers count down to completion before we are fed the next line of quests. And you don’t feel satisfied from playing the game because it never challenged you.”

In turn, this meant that developers didn’t spend time creating rich, fulfilling quests, but instead repeated the same simple generic template over and over, said Kern.

“The moment to moment gameplay suffers. And its this focus on throwaway quests as ‘content’ that is putting MMOs into a very deep bind,” he wrote.

“There is no thinking, and not much choice, as the ideal path is spoon fed to you in a linear fashion (ironic how open world MMOs have become linear quest fests).

“It may be great for relaxing and having a fun couple hours of gameplay, but it doesn’t last. No wonder we have such a huge crowd of jaded and bored MMO players.”

The focus of such games should be on the journey, added Kern.

“An MMO should be savored, a lifetime of experiences contained within a single, beautifully crafted world. The moment to moment gameplay should be its own reward.

“It’s not about the competition to max out your character, it’s about a way of life and a long term hobby with enduring friends.”

ARR tries to artificially infuse challenge and longevity into this model by implementing punishing group memorization tests.

But the flaws in cloning WoW are fundamental, and simply making Titan EX or T5 easier won't fix them.

The game needs challenge... REAL challenge based on DEPTH (meaningful decision making) rather than mere EXECUTION (group jump-rope)

[Rosy]

ARR follows WoW's model almost exactly. It is accessible, in the early levels, everything is charted out and spoon fed to you in rapid succession. When you finally get to endgame, it layers on difficulty by being punishing if you don't follow the exact scripted steps that the game designers intend for you to take.

I think the following sums up what is wrong with this model, from one of the people who designed it:



ARR tries to artificially infuse challenge and longevity into this model by implementing punishing group memorization tests.

But the flaws in cloning WoW are fundamental, and simply making Titan EX or T5 easier won't fix them.

The game needs challenge... REAL challenge based on DEPTH (meaningful decision making) rather than mere EXECUTION (group jump-rope)

Once again another "hit the nail on the head" moment. It used to take AGES to get one single level in games like EQ, in fact "ding" was often announced in general chat accompanied by many congrats, even if it was level 2!! I remember the run from my home town to Kaladim...it was SCARY, my adrenaline actually kicked in. I've never, ever had those moments in mmos since then.

The times I lost my body before it rotted in those early days of levelling up and had to go kill skeletons again to just get some ragged cloth items to wear. Yeah it was FUN, challenging right from the beginning to the very end. Grindy? yup, but for some reason we didn't seem to mind back then....and you could lose levels! yeah...go afk somewhere and you could come back finding yourself delevelled maybe 10 levels, if you weren't careful where you were.

Nice to see a developer asknowledge the fact that WoW ruined the mmorpg genre, and a shame that modern games try to emulate wow. Although there is one coming out that has gone back to basics...sure hope they don't change anything, as it is pure sandbox and looks awesome. Looking forward to the hours of training my skills (lockpicking/provoking in UO anyone?)

[TheUltimate3]

Could a EQ game even survive anymore?

Serious question and I know the term "survive" is a loaded one because in theory a game could survive just fine with 100,000 players if it was cost effective.

But can a MMO survive the budget required to make them nowadays on the EQ model. I've skimmed this thread for a few days and people bring up the MMOs of old, but could those MMOs of old survive this new era of the genre, or is everyone just thinking wistfully of the past?

[gornotck]

Could a EQ game even survive anymore?

Serious question and I know the term "survive" is a loaded one because in theory a game could survive just fine with 100,000 players if it was cost effective.

But can a MMO survive the budget required to make them nowadays on the EQ model. I've skimmed this thread for a few days and people bring up the MMOs of old, but could those MMOs of old survive this new era of the genre, or is everyone just thinking wistfully of the past?

Everquest and Everquest 2 both survive to this day, sort of. So I believe the answer is 'yes', but it won't attract the same toxic people as so-called Current Generation MMOs do. Entirely different toxic culture, with entirely different toxic goals.
What I find interesting about this debacle thread is that no one, or almost no one, has even suggested things like skill chains and the Battle Regime systems or other player-based methods of combatting and disabling enemies.
They just boil it down to mechanics versus gear, then throw around buzzwords and act as if everything is perfect forever, or would be perfect forever if they'd only just listen to reason (of which none existed).
You absolutely should be able to put together a group of random people through duty finder or party finder and have a reasonable expectation of success. You absolutely should be able to get through if most people know how to play their job, not their boss. You absolutely should be able to over gear for a fight as it gets older, making it quantifiably easier in every way.

You absolutely should be talking and communicating with your party and not treating them as accessories to your murder.