Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Iriadysa]

Forget it.

Sure guys, you want that. I'm sure you do. But Titan super hard, please nerf plumes, I have lag.

i dont know that much about ffxi endgame design, but at least you should look up the various strategies that people came up with to deal with absolute virtue. that is something that you're never going to see in xiv. the most we had of this is t2 enrage and SE will triple check every future encounter to not let this happen again and make them 100% scripted. you don't need any theorycrafting for this game, that's basically the missing "depth" part (don't confuse this with me wanting encounters like AV in the game, hell no).

in theory fast reaction is a possibility too, but not as long as the servers dictate your place in the world and not the client. and they won't change that, because it would require a complete rewrite of their netcode and server structure.

I never defended the depth of this game's encounters. I think they are plain and pathetic. That is exactly why people complaining and wanting to make them even easier is so hilariously exasperating

The people in this thread do not want hard encounters that require fast reactions, they want gear carried encounters. They just don't like that wording because it brings to light the ugly truth.

sadly, i think they are limited by what they can bring because of the ps3 that have soo little memory and they can't add too much developped AI because of this. that the only reason i can see why we get soo little AI improvement in the game.

*facepalm*
I guess sometimes I forget who I'm interacting with.

[Amberion]

The people in this thread do not want hard encounters that require fast reactions, they want gear carried encounters. They just don't like that wording because it brings to light the ugly truth.

Fights in a MMORPG should be based on your character vs enemies. This game focus way to much on you and your connection vs mechanics. It's more like S-E wants this game to be like a action/adventure/shooter kind of game, since stats, gear and abilities/magic has so limited impact.

[silentwindfr]

you are actually wrong, i want this sort of thing, being hit by the boss must'nt means insta death! healer must have other stuff to do instead to overheal tank and toss area heal when the boss do aoe.
we must have epic fight that will ask us to think to a way to overcome the fight. in past often the offtank had a really important role, even dps had some role that was often...crazy.
i will take wow as exemple, because it's what most people have know. the fight right before Gruul in burning crusade, where you had a mage tanking! it was insane! but was asking the group to think to a different way to approach the fight.

sadly in FF14: ARR we haven't any of this sort of crazy thinking... we haven't any... pfff any team play actually. we are 8 people doing our stuff and praying that everything will go well... because if you are hit, you are dead.

and i don't think he was using this example for the fast paced reflexe based fight, but more about.... the AI that need to be more deep and more... human like. indeed we ask for more random and it's possible to do it on fight like titan and such... because they are design for work like a scripted fight. in a random fight, you have rarely any instant kill attack, or it's one that will be counter by a stun or will ask some technic for avoid it.

what bother me, it's the fact that they don't devellop the deepth of them fight and simply give us the same stuff over and over and over. it's not fun, we must have the feeling that everytime we face a boss, we can die, because we don't know how the whole fight we go! because the boss will act randomly a bit... why not even don't have the same setup of attack each time. like one time he use a big axe and the next time he use two fast sword with different attack!

we are in 2014, a loooot of work was done in the video game for improve the AI of the monster... it's maybe time to do it in FF14: ARR... sadly, i think they are limited by what they can bring because of the ps3 that have soo little memory and they can't add too much developped AI because of this. that the only reason i can see why we get soo little AI improvement in the game.

[Zantetsuken]

The OP's post only scratches the surface of the problems in the game. Here is what is needed to fix things, IMHO:

• No content should be 'dumbed down' with ham-fisted tools like the "echo buff". Doing so diminishes the achievements of those who worked hard to conquer it, and it heaps condescension on those that haven't.

• No boss fight should be 100% scripted -- Every Boss should use AI to determine the majority of their actions -- based on their own internal cool-downs, triggers, and the behavior of the players.

• Mainstream boss attacks may inflict insti-kill, or perma-death, but NOT BOTH simultaneously.

• Every boss' stats and drop rates should be together modified from a range (eg. +/-10%) that is randomly applied each encounter.

• Every boss should have a 1~2 extra abilities (from a pool of ~4) that are randomly assigned to it each encounter.

• Every boss and FATE boss should have an ultra-rare (~0.5%) drop, even if the drop is just vanity.

• Bosses and FATE Bosses should enter 'desperation mode' when their HP falls below an assigned ranged of 10~15%. During this mode, they may become faster, more powerful, erratic and/or gain new attacks.

• The vertical gear system should only exist between level caps... as gear reaches the cap, it should branch out and become horizontal providing players with a variety of options for builds.

• Old content should have its party number/build requirements reduced or elimitated when new replacement content is released. (with the obvious exception of CT or other alliance raids)

• If server load is a problem, instanced content should be soft-gated through a variety of methods. Some should have cooldown timers, some should require farming entry items, some use currency (eg GC seals) to enter, etc etc...

• Standard Dungeons should feature an 'open-world exploration option' where players can casually enter and mine, harvest, treasure hunt and encounter FATE bosses which drop some thematic loot.

• Job skills and Limit Breaks should be revamped to reward players who coordinate attacks and actions.

• (a personal wish) New explorable zones.. more open, with higher lvl monsters that pose a serious agrro threat to players

Not only will these changes make the game better, but they will make the player community better as well. In FFXI, even PUG players would often /comfort someone who lost a BNCM battle and they would donate some of their own winnings to lessen the loss.

Randomness and AI add another important factor to the outcome of a battle. To put it bluntly: Without randomness in battles, players can (and will) only heap blame each other if they lose.

[Iriadysa]

Aaaaand let's begin the game today with:

Fights in a MMORPG should be based on your character vs enemies. This game focus way to much on you and your connection vs mechanics. It's more like S-E wants this game to be like a action/adventure/shooter kind of game, since stats, gear and abilities/magic has so limited impact.

I have a hard time understanding why anyone would play a game that isn't focused on their own accomplishments. When you ask for a game based "on your character", what you are asking is for a game that plays itself. Don't fool yourself here. In this game, when you decide to execute an ability that is you making the decision. The number that pops right after is not you.

FFXIV has a straight, easy to understand gearing system. Stats are clear and there's no convoluted combinations you can pull off (side note: and if you could, chances are someone would already do the math for you and publish it as Best Setup For X Job, defeating the point). So in a game like this you are not the numbers your abilities land for, you are the decisions you take and the reaction you apply.

You are not awesome because you did a 1k dmg attack, you are awesome because you landed that attack just as you side stepped between landslide and bombs and didn't even get hit.

The OP's post only scratches the surface of the problems in the game. Here is what is needed to fix things, IMHO:

I'm going to take your post and explain why this would not fix the things that the OP complains about. Some of your proposals will make the game more fun for me, but at the same time will make the game harder unless, of course, you make them so trivial that they become irrelevant.

• No content should be 'dumbed down' with ham-fisted tools like the "echo buff". Doing so diminishes the achievements of those who worked hard to conquer it, and it heaps condescension on those that haven't.

Right, echo makes fights silly. T4 is probably the highest offender I can think of. And yet, this is actually what the OP is defending...

• No boss fight should be 100% scripted -- Every Boss should use AI to determine the majority of their actions -- based on their own internal cool-downs, triggers, and the behavior of the players.

Absolutely. Titan should toss WotL on people that are surrounding a healer so that the healer is trapped, or use smart patterns so that there's almost no escape for you. He should always aim landslide towards the most difficult to dodge point. He should analyze a tank's cooldowns and decide to combo their asses when there's no self buffs on. He should gaol the healer with the highest MP while leaving the one with low MP to heal some massive stomp damage. Twintania should delay death sentence until the tank has no CDs up and target the closest person with her dread knights. And so on.

Would be pretty awesome, really, if the monsters had some real AI that would react to the players and I've asked for this since my time in FFXI, however, I ask it for a simple reason: it would make fights harder. And again, that's not what the OP wants. No amount of gear or echo would make these fights easier either, which is another of OP's points.

• Mainstream boss attacks may inflict insti-kill, or perma-death, but NOT BOTH simultaneously.

I see little problem with this and I believe it's a matter of taste. Permanent death is a bitch, but it's what we pay for how easy it is to get someone else back on track after they die. It makes death count. The alternative is to make getting people up mid fight much harder... which it was in FFXIV before they gave players an invincible time as they got back up.

• Every boss' stats and drop rates should be together modified from a range (eg. +/-10%) that is randomly applied each encounter.

Not really seeing the point of this. Plus, with the easy entry and exit system we have, people would just go in, probe the boss, determine if the random buff/nerf is -10% or +10% and exit again and again till they get a nerfed one.

• Every boss should have a 1~2 extra abilities (from a pool of ~4) that are randomly assigned to it each encounter.

I'm game for this. It will also make it even harder ^^

• Every boss and FATE boss should have an ultra-rare (~0.5%) drop, even if the drop is just vanity.

We have that in some fights and it's not very useful to get people to repeat them at this point. All primals drop pets at low rate, Leviathan on top of that drops mirrors and Ramuh will drop rare weapons. While a nice addition, it sadly doesn't work well to make people keep going into this content after they realize the low drop rate is like winning the lottery.

• Bosses and FATE Bosses should enter 'desperation mode' when their HP falls below an assigned ranged of 10~15%. During this mode, they may become faster, more powerful, erratic and/or gain new attacks.

Or they could do it like in TERA where monsters would enrage during the fight at different HP intervals. It was pretty awesome, because it made things so much more difficult! (Unless you fought teraliths... those are actually easier enraged <.<).
But sadly, I don't think the OP actually wants this... imagine Titan simply deciding to cast a faster landslide or faster WotL! Oh, the rage.

"Not only is this lag based, but it's also unfair that he randomly enrages and I can't prepare for it!"

• The vertical gear system should only exist between level caps... as gear reaches the cap, it should branch out and become horizontal providing players with a variety of options for builds.

Honestly, there's no way they can keep this system of making previous gear infinitely obsolete. I hope this crap ends by the time they rise the level cap with (I hope) the expansion.

• Old content should have its party number/build requirements reduced or elimitated when new replacement content is released. (with the obvious exception of CT or other alliance raids)

Meh, this is one of the few ideas on the OP that I find "ok". I don't see the complete point of it, but it would allow people with non multiples of 8 to actually help each other while at the same time making the encounter easier for themselves. The main problem I see with it is that it could backfire into becoming the de facto way of doing things instead of an alternative, which could have a heavy impact on the game.

• If server load is a problem, instanced content should be soft-gated through a variety of methods. Some should have cooldown timers, some should require farming entry items, some use currency (eg GC seals) to enter, etc etc...

• Standard Dungeons should feature an 'open-world exploration option' where players can casually enter and mine, harvest, treasure hunt and encounter FATE bosses which drop some thematic loot.

Whatever I guess. Someone may want that.

• Job skills and Limit Breaks should be revamped to reward players who coordinate attacks and actions.

The Limit Break system is a huge missed opportunity. I have no idea why it's not a party based coordination attack. In fact, when I first tried LB I naturally assumed it was a party based thing. Yes, it was a huge let down.

• (a personal wish) New explorable zones.. more open, with higher lvl monsters that pose a serious agrro threat to players

Imagine the rage. We already have threads asking to remove weight from aggroing on your chocobo.
"Why do I need a party to go through this zone?! All I want to do is reach the primal's spawn point! FIX NOW WTF"

Not only will these changes make the game better, but they will make the player community better as well. In FFXI, even PUG players would often /comfort someone who lost a BNCM battle and they would donate some of their own winnings to lessen the loss.

Randomness and AI add another important factor to the outcome of a battle. To put it bluntly: Without randomness in battles, players can (and will) only heap blame each other if they lose.

So the objective is to blame the RNG AI for your wipe instead? That would cause even more complains than what we have now.

As I said at the start of this, I'm all game for a better AI that makes encounters less predictable and more reactive. And, funny enough, this would make the game much harder and more "latency dependent" (aka, reaction dependent)... unless they make all these skills so irrelevant and weak that you can eat all of them with your i100 gear on an i80 encounter, which is actually the cornerstone of OP's proposal (i.e. echo and gear allowing you to bypass mechanics you cannot deal with yourself). At which point fights would actually become much more boring.

----

So what exactly is my point with this? Simple:

I believe people have not really read and understood the OP. You saw what happened with that guy quoting the EC video: he had clearly not understood much of it.

What I believe is happening in this thread is that there's a bunch of people stuck at higher tier content, namely Titan Ex, Twintania and Coil 2, which would like to do this content now but cannot, thus they want it nerfed. These people saw a relatively well written post that included this idea somewhere and without truthfully understanding what it says they decided to make it their Avatar of Light. But all they are doing is following a false prophet.

[Melithea]

As I said at the start of this, I'm all game for a better AI that makes encounters less predictable and more reactive. And, funny enough, this would make the game much harder and more "latency dependent" (aka, reaction dependent)... unless they make all these skills so irrelevant and weak that you can eat all of them with your i100 gear on an i80 encounter, which is actually the cornerstone of OP's proposal (i.e. echo and gear allowing you to bypass mechanics you cannot deal with yourself). At which point fights would actually become much more boring.

This right here is the crux. People don't seem to realize that the "solutions" they are asking for will have harsh consequences. They will either:

1. Make fights much, MUCH harder than they already are by requiring you to be even more reactive and giving you less ability to plan ahead.

2. Make fights much, MUCH more boring than they already are as people simply overgear them and ignore strategy entirely (like they do right now with Turns 1 and 2).

Many of the suggestions are not bad, you just need to think through to where they lead the game as you have proposed them.

Honestly I think the best suggestion that I've seen in this thread or any other is to introduce a casual/easy/story mode to balance brutal mode, and let people feel like they are still progressing something, kind of. There are still many problems with this.

1. It won't solve anybody's boredom.
2. People will complain if it drops loot. People will complain if it doesn't drop loot.
3. It won't be "fun".
4. It won't prepare you for the more difficult content that lies beyond. You'll simply be relegated to lower class player status until you're ready to take off the training wheels.

[Gormogon]

snip

That's because everyone has their own opinion in regards to handling "difficulty" and "depth".

Brutal should appeal to the hardcore elitist that desire scripted fights where you need encyclopedic knowledge to do basic functions where everything one shots you if you can't do the perfect dance. Difficulty is high, everyone needs a near BiS set to compete, rewards will be given once you complete all of the fights by the end of the week. All players that complete all turns are given the chance to get the Brutal set. (Think of the Primal Focus quest)

Normal coil should appeal to the progressive mainstream player. There will still be one shot mechanics and you'll still need to follow rotation but it will be doable as time passes by with gear (No echo until the next major patch). Grants the Normal Allagan or High Allagan set piece dedicated for that content.

Easy mode coil should appeal to the casual and progressive player. Echo can be applied from the start at the cost of a treasure coffer (until the next major patch). Yet gear is that equivalent to the token gear. In our current case that would be the ilvl 100 Weather set and the weekly lockout still applies. Also the drop rate to upgrade the weathered gear is much lower than normal coil.

Whichever version you do you'll be locked into it for that week. (until it gets removed and put on DF which only applies to Normal and Easy mode.)

Personally I wouldn't want it to come to this but it should be an acceptable compromise to even the hardcore elitist.

Can someone explain to me why it's bad to have the ability to overgear content?

Because elitists hate the notion that you can do something you wouldn't be able to do otherwise because unlike the people that cleared it you didn't "work" for it. Then again the notion is hilarious since they use videos and guides for everything. Yet the team is catering more and more to the hardcore elitist crowd than they are the rest of their player base and Final Fantasy does kind of have a reputation for their design approaches to end up very grinding and sadistic in nature, no offense Square-Enix.

[Clavaat]

Because elitists hate the notion that you can do something you wouldn't be able to do otherwise because unlike the people that cleared it you didn't "work" for it. Then again the notion is hilarious since they use videos and guides for everything. Yet the team is catering more and more to the hardcore elitist crowd than they are the rest of their player base and Final Fantasy does kind of have a reputation for content but very grinding and sadistic on their design approach.

Sorry but this is a bit extreme to me. I think we need to take a step back and think here.

For starters, as I've said in other posts, I don't give up on members of a Party. I know Player X and Player Y can dodge/adapt to nearly anything, but the challenge comes from leading everyone to follow the same thing. That's been a common argument throughout this thread.

With good leadership, I feel a group can complete anything. Player Z has trouble dodging Divebombs. Instead of blaming, pointing fingers for losses, etc, a good leader would recognize this and work with the player on an individual level to get through it. Like anything else in life, with enough practice, anyone can become good at something.

Is that ideal hardcore elitist? Maybe...I don't know. If you get to T9 using a methodology like that, I'd like to think that no, it isn't. And I believe you could get through most, if not all content that way, despite unforgiving mechanics.

Overgearing content runs the risk of none of that mattering. What I described, I supposed can be construed as "work", but honestly, I find it fun and engaging to know your strengths and weaknesses, and work together to figure them out as opposed to giving up.

Variety in content is appreciated; having content that is more simple tank and spank, like pretty much everything in FFXI, is fine. I don't think it should be rewarded as highly as something that took coordination and adaptation (even if you know the fight inside and out, things can happen).

I say none of this to attack you or anything, but I think if you take it from a different perspective, you'd feel better about the situation at hand. And maybe I'm weird for thinking this way. But at the end of the day, I'm enjoying myself with what is given to me currently in terms of the game.

[OSUBuckeye4]

This is not an issue with the difficulty of one dungeon and one trial. This is an issue with an overall lack of content in the game because the game is still very young and content is limited for everyone. It's getting a lot better as time goes by. There's a LOT of stuff you haven't done, you're just not interested in doing it. Which is okay, but you can't blame the content and you can't blame one hard dungeon for that.

I agree somewhat with this. The thing you're ignoring is that most of the new content that has been added, has been placed behind the brick walls that are Titan EX and Coil Turn 5.

I know that SE is allegedly addressing the Titan EX problem in a few weeks and allowing players to bypass it, but, it's been this way for months and a lot of damage has already been done.

I've played this game daily since Closed Beta. I still have lots of stuff to do. There is a TON of content for mainstream gamers. This idea that because a small slice of content is "reserved for troll elitists" (for a few months until they make it easier) and somehow this is ruining the game and making everyone quit isn't just wrong, it's ridiculous.

It's not that a small slice of content is reserved for the elitiests... it's that adidtional content that is released is placed behind that wall that 90% of the server can't get past.

THAT is the problem, and you keep dancing around it.

SE says, "we've added these amazing new Turns to the Coil, but, if you haven't got past T5, you can't check them out". Or, "we've added new primal EX battles that will tests your skills, come check them out!" then the player logs in and realize that if they haven't beat Titan EX, they can't access that amazing new content.

That discourages a lot of people.

You're telling me it doesn't... I know it does, because I've watched over a dozen members of the FC I'm a member of leave because they got discouraged by this very issue.



And I'm not saying nerf it and make it easy for everyone, then you're alienating your hardcore playerbase, and that's not good at all. I'm saying, add an additional story mode for people who want to experience it, but don't have the time to find a static and spend hours upon hours getting the memorization down pat. Don't offer rewards, but allow them to experience the content. That's all.

Or, make it stand-alone content and allow everyone to try and fail and experience it.

Just, don't promote all of this awesome new stuff and then have people log in and realize they can't get to any of it. That upsets people.

[Yukiko]

Just, don't promote all of this awesome new stuff and then have people log in and realize they can't get to any of it. That upsets people.

That maybe is the source of their problems...