Current State of End-Game Contents - A Blog Post from A Japanese Player

[Clavaat]

Yes, there where guides back then. But it was more, stand here for a bit of safety, or you can kite it around here. And also what moves it had. Now it's pretty much stand here for x seconds, then move here because boss use this move and then do this and that.

Come on now, stop being silly.

The reason there are less details is simply that the fights didn't have anywhere near as much movement and coordination. Even then, they still give a hell of a lot of information. Not to mention there were videos (date 2007, this is just 1 example. 2nd video to appear on google search). You're grasping at straws here.

[Amberion]

Come on now, stop being silly.

The reason there are less details is simply that the fights didn't have anywhere near as much movement and coordination. Even then, they still give a hell of a lot of information. Not to mention there were videos (date 2007, this is just 1 example. 2nd video to appear on google search). You're grasping at straws here.

First of, those testimonials are not even close to how guides are for XIV.

Secondly, that movie was not a guide. And you can't take the info from that video and do exactly the same and win, like you can now days. A mod like WoWs deadly boss mod can be used in this game if it existed, it would not have functioned in XI.

And well, the Kirin fight probably have more movement then any fight in XIV. You also had to coordinate with you alliance on skillchains/magicbursts.

The only thing you knew about the moves Kirin had, is that he would use them sometime during the fight, but not when.

You will have to elaborate if it was something else you meant.

[Gilthas]

Eh, Clavaat is right, the reason there weren't any detailed guides for FFXI bosses is because there really was no need (though YouTube not being a thing back then also contributed a lot). They were simplistic enough for text to be more than enough. How hard is it to explain Kirin? How hard is it to explain Faf/Nid? How hard is it to explain DL?

Yes, it is true that Kirin required you to move a lot, but kiting was pretty much aimless, you just ran the boss in circles, that's not the kind of movements you do in FFXIV. FFXIV videoguides show you where to stand, Kirin doesn't need to show you because the only thing you need to know is to stay away if you're being targeted. And yes, FFXI did have the need for coordination for skillchains/magic bursts, but we're talking about a game where most classes had nothing to do until they reached 100 TP. Compare that to how Monk and Dragoons have to move around to keep their DPS up, and it's really no comparison at all.

[Sandpark]

The issue is not mechanics. The issue is the game has a high degree of situational awareness danger,but lacks reactional awareness skills for the entire party besides dodging. Most danger is telegraphed but because there are no skills to deal with each scenario specifically. It becomes a game of "jump rope". This problem began with the omitting of elemental wheels and non existence of bar-spells,etc. Bad situations wouldn't be so bad if there are avenues of diminishing the effect. Gear & level & resistances should play into diminishing bad situations somewhat but never trivialize the effects.

The jump rope extends to battle classes. Rotations exist in every rpg. But I find it dull if the same rotation is supreme in all circumstances. Enemies should have unique properties that need to be handled differently depending on situations.Here don't matter what enemy/environment does. Most class have no way react to dmg besides dodge.Dodge or eat dirt.If dmg lowered that situations bring. Cause no skills to counter each situation on case basis=jump rope. I brought up XI not cause all class had em, but "some had em beside the tank".If mnster AoE fire. What has more multi engagement?
1.Dodge
2.Tank cast AoE dmg reducing skill to counter specific enemy AoE & ppl dodge
3.Tank & mage cast dmg reducing skill to counter specific enemy AoE & ppl dodge
4.All have small dmg reduction to counter enemy AoE,ppl dodge

People know what used in these dungeons.It lacked variety in XI at times due to the enemy tact were 1 dimensional.Developer choice, a choice they could change. Here is small repeating rotation in player skills,enemy tact,environment situations.

Barspell/Wheel: No, barspell required countering one of eight spells with a specific counter, if any counter worked for any spell that is bloat. Mana-ward requires no thought like the former chess match. Does one defense fit every situation? Look at all chinese kung-fu, does the same suit a fireman uses the same as a deep sea diver? Would creatures made out of electricity,stone, skin, rubber, or water all be weak to fire? No sir it does not, nothing is monotone.

[Gilthas]

This problem began with the omitting of elemental wheels and non existence of bar-spells,etc.

I'll have to disagree there. The elemental wheel and bar-spells does nothing to lessen the problems you mentioned.

It's odd that you say that the game lacks reactional awareness skills for the entire party and then bring up FFXI mechanics. How many jobs in FFXI had these reactional awareness skills? The answer is very few.

Elemental wheel and barspells? You entered each fight in FFXI already knowing what you were going to use in the fight. The only thing the elemental wheel did was make you use different spells for different mobs to do the exact same thing. That's not variety, that's just bloat, because you're not really doing different things in each fight, you're doing the same thing but your spell animations are different.

[Amberion]

Eh, Clavaat is right, the reason there weren't any detailed guides for FFXI bosses is because there really was no need (though YouTube not being a thing back then also contributed a lot). They were simplistic enough for text to be more than enough. How hard is it to explain Kirin? How hard is it to explain Faf/Nid? How hard is it to explain DL?
-snip-

I guess we just have to disagree with each other here. I just don't see how you can give the details in a guide, when most happens randomly. When in a fully scripted fight, you can tell them what to do before a skill and after to prepare for next you know will come and when.

Yes, personal coordination is much more in this game. But I would trade all that for more interaction between the players instead.

[Gilthas]

Because all you need to know with the stuff that happens randomly is "when boss does this you do this". I don't even see how you can possibly argue that FFXI fights were hard to make a guide for when for the vast majority of FFXI endgame fights I entered blind and just got a brief explanation that was more than sufficient.

- If Kirin is casting an AoE run away from him.
- If we get claim on Faf/Nid tank party stands on right foot and DD parties on left foot. No DoTs so we can sleep him if necessary.
- Tank party stands here. Mages/ranged stand here. Melees rush in after the tanks position DL and Red Mages start chainstun. Burn him down as fast as you can and hopefully we'll kill him before he kills us.

You don't really need a detailed video for this kind of stuff.

As for skillchains and magicbursts. They were needed in FFXI because most jobs barely had anything to do during fights. FFXIV keeps me busy enough.

[Clavaat]

-snip-

http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kirin Goes into pretty great detail of what to do. Again, there just weren't as many mechanics, so it will look like less, naturally.

The video was one example, there are many, and they existed back then. Come on, man, I googled "ffxi kirin strategy" and it was the first thing that came up. Replace Kirin with any other boss in FFXI and you'd get the same result, with the same amount of detail as an FFXIV fight.

And please, don't bring SC/MB into this. They were not difficult to perform or discover once guides were released. You just looked at it and went "Ya, that MB is strong against him, what do I have that makes it? Jim, can you do Y? I got X. Bob, you cast Z. Macro up. K." I'm not saying it wasn't a cool system mind you. But to say it was complicated is a stretch. The picture always makes it look worse than it is.

[DurtiMonkeyToe]

Someone give me an example of an old MMO boss fight that was so much harder than XIV boss fights so I can do a compare and contrast, please?

[Magis]

Someone give me an example of an old MMO boss fight that was so much harder than XIV boss fights so I can do a compare and contrast, please?

Razorgore will always be my favorite, and i have always referenced that as my example of "classic" MMO raids. 40 monsters (orcs and dragonkin actually) on the field, some being kited by hunters, some being CCed by mages/rogues, and the rest being killed by damage dealers. ONTOP of that, one player is mind controlling the actual boss, trying to destroy eggs as fast as possible. After all that, the boss finally aggros and must be killed. It was truly an endurance test based on players mental stamina and their character's as well, like one poster mentioned... instead of some arbitrary rage timer. Everyone had to stay focused, use their utility skills and knowledge how to play, and do their job during the fight to pass phase one. However, unlike FFXIV, you could still pull off a win if half the raid (20 people) die and you are still good enough to push out damage, heal the tank, and keep aggro. Unlike XIV where 1 person dieing == wipe.

Oh yeah, and this was the first thing you see entering BWL. You don't get to even explore until you beat me, the giant rooster block lol.

Here was the strat: http://www.wowwiki.com/Razorgore_the_Untamed