I don't understand...

[Gormogon]

If a tank pulls an AOE group by using Flash only once (which seems to be Songi is saying) and then doing 1-2-3 on the primary kill target only, there is no working around that. A single cure will send all of the other targets running straight for the healer. You can "work around" certain things, but if a tank isn't incurring enmity on all targets in an AOE pull, there's nothing to "work around." Your two options in that situation are to either offer the tank polite advice (such as to use Flash much more liberally), or wipe repeatedly until you all give up out of frustration.

I had tanks do that as I was healing on my WHM, not so hard to fluid aura, sleep, save swiftcast for stoneskin, clutch heal/cc, or last hit damage and get it done with, use regen and small heals. If worse comes to worse I'd just kite tank the other adds while dpsing and healing.

Instead of sitting there doing nothing but whine hoping for the issue to magically resolve itself. God forbid the existence of ingenuity and situational awareness.

The expectations people have now compared to when MMO's first started is pretty hilarious. Duty Finder is not Major League Gaming and portions of the community take it to the comic book guy extremes by going to town on someone because they can't do what you believe should be standard which is elitist no matter how you want to spin it. You can go on and claim you're giving advice but you are not since you are only typing because it was an inconvenience.

Players want hard content and it has become the norm in MMO's now. Yet to whine when you have to deal with bad players because content now requires a certain threshold of effort is pretty pointless and it's the reason why a small percentage ever ends up downing end game content. Instead of whining and doing nothing why don't you follow that "advice" and put effort into being better and handling the situation on your own instead of relying on others you obviously can't rely on? Since you already claim to be so well versed in the mechanics of the game. How about effort into forming your own groups if the idea of being paired with bads ails you? Two things which ainn't happening and all I see is people venting and making sob stories.

The venting I get but you can resolve it faster than trying to give bads advice at all. The sob stories however aren't needed and are pointless since using DF equates to being paired up with strangers that will lead to an array of skill levels ranging from bad, on horrible internet to good and geared.

[Tiggy]

One of the best replies I've ever seen in these types of threads was something along the lines of "Telling people how to play is elitist, kicking them is elitist, leaving is elitist. Only if you remain silent and wipe for all eternity will you not be considered elitist." Lol. I've since lost the quote, though

That's the moral some of the more extreme people here would have you believe.

God forbid we want to help people. God forbid we be good caring people. God forbid we build a community on the basis of helping others. God forbid we act in a moderate manner that matches more real life situations more than extreme positions and examples consistently provided in this thread.

As this thread continues that's all that will keep being said. Shut up and deal with it or your being too "elite." Those of us who are more realistic and just want to help will be pounded on for being elitists. In an mmo it's apparently impossible to help people without being labeled an elitist. That's the story being told here, and it's pathetic.

[Foo01]

That's the moral some of the more extreme people here would have you believe. ...
... Those of us who are more realistic and just want to help will be pounded on for being elitists. In an mmo it's apparently impossible to help people without being labeled an elitist. That's the story being told here, and it's pathetic.

I've been helped by plenty of players and I've helped plenty of players. I the only problems I have on a regular basis (three times a week) are elitist speed runner trying to for speed runs on people that are not ready, whatever the dungeon. There are many ways to help other players, but the one thing that can help most to reset the expectation so that people understand that speed running is a nice bonus but not a must have. This way it can be more relaxed and people will have less drama. And there will be no need to nitpick over other people rotations and such.

[Kerberon]

That's the moral some of the more extreme people here would have you believe.

God forbid we want to help people. God forbid we be good caring people. God forbid we build a community on the basis of helping others. God forbid we act in a moderate manner that matches more real life situations more than extreme positions and examples consistently provided in this thread.

As this thread continues that's all that will keep being said. Shut up and deal with it or your being too "elite." Those of us who are more realistic and just want to help will be pounded on for being elitists. In an mmo it's apparently impossible to help people without being labeled an elitist. That's the story being told here, and it's pathetic.

Agreed, this you can't ever give advice kick the militant casuals are on is disgusting.

[Foo01]

Agreed, this you can't ever give advice kick the militant casuals are on is disgusting.

When pigs fly then maybe your militant casual can be found at the end of the rainbow. There are not militant casuals see:

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...49#post2164549

[Tiggy]

I've been helped by plenty of people and I've helped plenty of players. I the only problems I have on a regular basis (three times a week) are elitist speed runner trying to for speed runs on people that are not ready, whatever the dungeon. There are many ways to help other players, but the one thing that can help most to reset the expectation so that people understand that speed running is a nice bonus but not a must have. This way it can be more relaxed and people will have less drama. And there will be no need to nitpick over other people rotations and such.

At what point in this ENTIRE thread did I EVER act like I was forcing speed runs on people? At what point have I EVER acted that way? Please. Illustrate for me. For as far as I can tell all I've asked for in this entire thread was moderation from BOTH sides. Yet here you are. Constantly assuming I'm trying to force speed runs or something. Can you not accept for five seconds that I'm NOT talking about some a-hole player trying to force a speed run? Can you try to accept my words for what I'm actually saying instead of coloring it with your assumptions of who I am and what I do?

Maybe one day when they allow you to punch through the internet you can get your point across to all those bad playing the game by force who are hurting you since you wont do anything productive from your end outside of barking orders.

This is a good illustration of the problem with this thread. Despite actually giving an example earlier in this thread of a way to give advice while being respectful the assumption is still that we are "barking" orders. Words that we say don't get through because they instantly become colored with biased assumptions. "When they said "tips" they must mean they are just shouting at that player." It's these kinds of assumptions that make this entire conversation break down. There is no middle ground. No possible way to do it better and kinder. None at all. Anything AT ALL is too much.

These kind of responses leave ZERO room for any discussion because to these people it's their way or the high way. You can't possibly have an argument or a better way because if it isn't their way your too elite and just barking orders.

[Gormogon]

Agreed, this you can't ever give advice kick the militant casuals are on is disgusting.

The irony is that you can't take advice either.

Maybe one day when they allow you to punch through the internet you can get your point across to all those bad playing the game by force who are hurting you since you wont do anything productive from your end outside of barking orders.

[Foo01]

At what point in this ENTIRE thread did I EVER act like I was forcing speed runs on people? At what point have I EVER acted that way?

I never said you were. But we got stuff like "militan casuals" What? They don't want to do speed runs, they can't do speed runs and they are upset about it so they are militant casuals? So stuff like this is clearly irresponsible:

.... "Telling people how to play is elitist, kicking them is elitist, leaving is elitist. Only if you remain silent and wipe for all eternity will you not be considered elitist." ....(

People rage quitting (a.k.a leave) because other can not speed run is elitist. People kicking the lesser geared because they can't speed run is elitist. And no one demands that people forever remain silent, just don't go off berating others because they are inexperienced or undergeared.

[Tiggy]

I never said you were. But we got stuff like "militan casuals" What? They don't want to do speed runs, they can't do speed runs and they are upset about it so they are militant casuals? So stuff like this is clearly irresponsible:



People rage quitting (a.k.a leave) because other can not speed run is elitist. People kicking the lesser geared because they can speed run is elitist. And no one demands that people forever remain silent, just don't go off berating others because they are inexperienced or undergeared.

and for that we are in complete agreement. The problem is you won't even come to a moderate center and agree that it's even possible to help people in a nice way. At all. It's your way or nothing at all. Help people through wiping or shut your mouth. That's all I keep hearing from you.

[Cap75]

Telling them a better way is not berating, but you run the risk of it being received that way and it has happened to turn out that way. Doesn't mean it is always that way. And if they give up tanking, or give up the game, is that really good for everyone? Maybe they just need more reps at it and figure it out. Learn by doing. Takes time, takes patience, so it naturally has to go slower.

By SV how many dungeons must this tank have done? If they don't have the most basic aspect of being a tank down by that point then I would say giving up tanking is indeed good for everyone. Not everyone is cut out to tank.