I don't understand...

[Keres]

So the issue being you couldn't adjust to his rotation, not surprised..

If a tank pulls an AOE group by using Flash only once (which seems to be Songi is saying) and then doing 1-2-3 on the primary kill target only, there is no working around that. A single cure will send all of the other targets running straight for the healer. You can "work around" certain things, but if a tank isn't incurring enmity on all targets in an AOE pull, there's nothing to "work around." Your two options in that situation are to either offer the tank polite advice (such as to use Flash much more liberally), or wipe repeatedly until you all give up out of frustration.

[Foo01]

snip..

It is unclear how many flashes were used and when first of all. Additionally a CNJ/WHM has repose for Stone Vigil a level 41 dungeon and the mobs can all be put to sleep on that one, except the triple aevis before the final boss.

So what I've got from recent posts: Don't tell people what they're doing wrong because that's elitist. I guess I'll just kick 'em then. Wouldn't want to be labeled as an elitist

Why is it so hard to go slower an accomodate them instead of berating them or kicking them? Why make demands of those who may or may not have the ability at that time to meet your higher expectations (even if the expectations are that high)? If it is easy make an adjustment on your side why not do it?

[Keres]

It is unclear how many flashes were used and when first of all. Additionally a CNJ/WHM has repose for Stone Vigil a level 41 dungeon and the mobs can all be put to sleep on that one, except the triple aevis before the final boss.

Songi's original post is pretty clearly-worded to indicate that the tank was, to quote:

using flash to pull and never using more than his 1-2-3 aggro chain on a single target in a group pull

Secondly, Sleep/Repose isn't really an excuse to not keep using Flash once in a while, because 1) Sleep can get broken by accident from time to time, and 2) when the Sleep breaks (either by accident or simply because the timer ran out), as the tank you're still going to want to be sure that you have hate on those targets. Using Flash is an easy (and non-sleep-breaking) way to do that.

[Foo01]

Songi's original post is pretty clearly-worded to indicate that the tank was...

Clearly worded but not from the side of the tank who can't possibly tell us what had happened. 1 flash 2 flash someone could miss one when they were looking away etc. I wouldn't make the call unless there is more solid information. It is easy to bash on someone else who it not present.

.... Even if you CAN sleep the mobs, that doesn't make enmity go away. The healer will still build up enmity and as soon as the sleep breaks, it will beeline for the healer. ...

If you are down to single target, the tank won't need much healing and the healer can DPS with the dps bring down the mobs one at time. By the time it wakes up the tank would already had done the ROH combo on it an secured it. I've dozed off doing things this way on Stone Vigil before, but the dungeon still got cleared and there was no drama or bad feelings.

[ispano]

It is unclear how many flashes were used and when first of all. Additionally a CNJ/WHM has repose for Stone Vigil a level 41 dungeon and the mobs can all be put to sleep on that one, except the triple aevis before the final boss.

You are still missing it. Even if you CAN sleep the mobs, that doesn't make enmity go away. The healer will still build up enmity and as soon as the sleep breaks, it will beeline for the healer. Unless of course the tank is generating proper aoe enmity. Secondly, there's more Aevis in the whole dungeon, that particular pull is just the most damaging, ie the most healing required.

[Gormogon]

If a tank pulls an AOE group by using Flash only once (which seems to be Songi is saying) and then doing 1-2-3 on the primary kill target only, there is no working around that. A single cure will send all of the other targets running straight for the healer. You can "work around" certain things, but if a tank isn't incurring enmity on all targets in an AOE pull, there's nothing to "work around." Your two options in that situation are to either offer the tank polite advice (such as to use Flash much more liberally), or wipe repeatedly until you all give up out of frustration.

I had tanks do that as I was healing on my WHM, not so hard to fluid aura, sleep, save swiftcast for stoneskin, clutch heal/cc, or last hit damage and get it done with, use regen and small heals. If worse comes to worse I'd just kite tank the other adds while dpsing and healing.

Instead of sitting there doing nothing but whine hoping for the issue to magically resolve itself. God forbid the existence of ingenuity and situational awareness.

The expectations people have now compared to when MMO's first started is pretty hilarious. Duty Finder is not Major League Gaming and portions of the community take it to the comic book guy extremes by going to town on someone because they can't do what you believe should be standard which is elitist no matter how you want to spin it. You can go on and claim you're giving advice but you are not since you are only typing because it was an inconvenience.

Players want hard content and it has become the norm in MMO's now. Yet to whine when you have to deal with bad players because content now requires a certain threshold of effort is pretty pointless and it's the reason why a small percentage ever ends up downing end game content. Instead of whining and doing nothing why don't you follow that "advice" and put effort into being better and handling the situation on your own instead of relying on others you obviously can't rely on? Since you already claim to be so well versed in the mechanics of the game. How about effort into forming your own groups if the idea of being paired with bads ails you? Two things which ainn't happening and all I see is people venting and making sob stories.

The venting I get but you can resolve it faster than trying to give bads advice at all. The sob stories however aren't needed and are pointless since using DF equates to being paired up with strangers that will lead to an array of skill levels ranging from bad, on horrible internet to good and geared.

[Keres]

I had tanks do that as I was healing on my WHM, not so hard to fluid aura, sleep, save swiftcast for stoneskin, clutch heal/cc, or last hit damage and get it done with, use regen and small heals. If worse comes to worse I'd just kite tank the other adds while dpsing and healing.

Instead of sitting there doing nothing but whine hoping for the issue to magically resolve itself. God forbid the existence of ingenuity and situational awareness.

The expectations people have now compared to when MMO's first started is pretty hilarious. Duty Finder is not Major League Gaming and portions of the community take it to the comic book guy extremes by going to town on someone because they can't do what you believe should be standard which is elitist no matter how you want to spin it.

Tanking poorly and letting your team members die (or having them be forced to pick up your slack) is frustrating when you're the tank. I get mad at myself whenever I mess up tanking and someone else dies because of it, or worse, the whole group wipes. For all you know, that tank wishes they could be doing better when they see monsters going off and attacking the healer; it's entirely possible that they simply don't know why and are too shy to ask for help due to fear of someone yelling at them. I've seen it happen before, heck, I've even been there a few times in various games.

Politeness and humbleness is something that should go both ways, and it's entirely possible to give friendly advice without coming across as a jerk. The fact that you don't seem to believe it's possible is a little confusing, honestly.

Not just a few days ago, I politely told a co-tank in Garuda (as close to exact wording as I can recall) "hey, in case you didn't know about it, you can step through her to avoid the Slipstreams. It can save a lot of damage. " and he was grateful for the information. In fact, if someone gets offended and cries elitism at that particular line of text, I'm going to state that they're being unreasonable. I can understand not accepting abusive or rude behavior, but it is entirely possible to give friendly/helpful advice, framed in a nonthreatening way. This is not a black-and-white issue.

It seems like you've just set up this straw-man version of an "elitist player" for yourself, and whenever anyone in this thread responds to you, you respond to your strawman rather than the (seemingly reasonable) people who are actually trying to share their point of view. If you're interested in fostering a constructive discussion, this isn't the best way to go about it.

[Gormogon]

Politeness and humbleness is something that should go both ways, and it's entirely possible to give friendly advice without coming across as a jerk. The fact that you don't seem to believe it's possible is a little confusing, honestly.

"Can" go both ways. The fact that you and others jump to that assumptions simply because I ain't raising my pitchfork and torch is of no surprise to me.

In page 3 I said, "depending on the person can either lead to him hearing you out or taking it as a personal insult".

[Kerberon]

"Can" go both ways. The fact that you and others jump to that assumptions simply because I ain't raising my pitchfork and torch is of no surprise to me.

In page 3 I said, "depending on the person can either lead to him hearing you out or taking it as a personal insult".

And if they take it as an insult, they're in the wrong, and better off in single player titles. They're too sensitive to participate as adults in a recreational activity that involves other people. Maybe they're depressed, maybe they had a bad day, maybe who knows. But they are 100% in the wrong in that case and should not be in a group.

[Gormogon]

And if they take it as an insult, they're in the wrong.

So how many times has that methodology been working again? Since if it was threads like these wouldn't exists.