I don't understand...

[Seig345]

*Spams Cure III, ignores Cure I and II, runs out of mp too quick, party dies 5 times in a row*
"Use Cure I to chain with Cure II and II to chain with III"
"Shush, I paid my money, I play how I want!"

*Runs into Goomba and dies 5 times in a row*
"Press A to jump!"
"Shush, I paid my money, I play how I want!"

Sounds legit.

[RaquelleAvarosa]

*Spams Cure III, ignores Cure I and II, runs out of mp too quick, party dies 5 times in a row*
"Use Cure I to chain with Cure II and II to chain with III"
"Shush, I paid my money, I play how I want!"

*Runs into Goomba and dies 5 times in a row*
"Press A to jump!"
"Shush, I paid my money, I play how I want!"

Sounds legit.

Exactly the kind of people that should be on the receiving end of the axe

[Welsper59]

A majority of the time for me, as in closer to 51% "majority", these sorts of people aren't really causing much of a problem. Complaints are usually coming from severe degrees of impatience. Sure things don't die as fast as it would normally, but no ones time on this game is valuable. It's called "free time" for a reason. Sure a lot of folks don't have a lot of it, but they're playing an MMORPG... if they can't figure out the implications of that in relation to free time, they probably aren't the brightest bulb in the box. It's not the end of the world if folks spend a few more minutes in a dungeon. Now if everyone is constantly dying or the subpar players are just causing a lot of problems (like being a "hero" and pulling things ahead of the tank), or doing endgame raid/difficult content, then that's a totally different story. They just don't belong there until they can learn to play as expected of people in that tier of content.

[Foo01]

*Spams Cure III, ignores Cure I and II, runs out of mp too quick, party dies 5 times in a row*
"Use Cure I to chain with Cure II and II to chain with III"
"Shush, I paid my money, I play how I want!"
...
Sounds legit.

Trolls that obvious gets vote kicked by the party. And this just a strawman made to look like a supposed "bad" player. This completely bogus. Other than trolls, I've never seen a player deliberately screwing things up.

[ispano]

A majority of the time for me, as in closer to 51% "majority", these sorts of people aren't really causing much of a problem. Complaints are usually coming from severe degrees of impatience. Sure things don't die as fast as it would normally, but no ones time on this game is valuable. It's called "free time" for a reason. Sure a lot of folks don't have a lot of it, but they're playing an MMORPG... if they can't figure out the implications of that in relation to free time, they probably aren't the brightest bulb in the box. It's not the end of the world if folks spend a few more minutes in a dungeon. Now if everyone is constantly dying or the subpar players are just causing a lot of problems (like being a "hero" and pulling things ahead of the tank), or doing endgame raid/difficult content, then that's a totally different story. They just don't belong there until they can learn to play as expected of people in that tier of content.

Excuse me? Who are you to tell someone that their entertainment time isn't valuable to them?

Trolls that obvious gets vote kicked by the party. And this just a strawman made to look like a supposed "bad" player. This completely bogus. Other than trolls, I've never seen a player deliberately screwing things up.

Willingly choosing to ignore or not listen to advice to improve to help the group as a whole, is deliberately "screwing" things up. Period. They choose not to try and improve, or they choose to ignore the advice and such. The reason doesn't actually matter. If they are pulling the party down, after advice is given, they are doing it willingly.

I'm someone who understands what "valuable" means and am logical about it in this context. It's a rather subjective matter, but we're not trying to fight a war or better humanity in playing this game. They're playing an MMORPG, a genre of game that you CANNOT CONTROL THE TIME SPENT TO DO SOMETHING. You can try to push it in a certain way to be as quick as possible, but things can happen to interfere with that. Hence why I said that if it is indeed exceptionally valuable to an individual, and they unreasonably complain about this uncontrollable variable of time, they're probably not the brightest. People need to get away from RL, away from the stresses of it, but they still have to consider certain things related to how they use their free time. Otherwise, you're just building up that stress, except from a virtual life rather than a real one. Again, it's called "free time" for a reason. Chances are, you're not gonna be curing diseases or doing something useful to your everyday life when you play this game (as opposed to spending this time doing something else for your source of entertainment).

Yet you contradict yourself in your first two sentences. If someone's entertainment times is valuable to them, it's valuable to them, period. You don't get to decide that. I don't really care about an instance going slower or faster than normal, my point is about you pushing how you "understand" what valuable means as the only correct meaning. And, yes, that IS what your post says.

[Tiggy]

Trolls that obvious gets vote kicked by the party. And this just a strawman made to look like a supposed "bad" player. This completely bogus. Other than trolls, I've never seen a player deliberately screwing things up.

They aren't straw man arguments. These are things people have literally seen in dungeons. I've seen healers just as bad myself doing similar things described there. You're disbelief doesn't change the fact people do see players that bad. They do exist. Also, if they are new players who don't know what they are doing then they aren't deliberately screwing up. They are just new and don't know what the heck they are doing. Not everything people are describing is deliberate.

[Welsper59]

Excuse me? Who are you to tell someone that their entertainment time isn't valuable to them?

I'm someone who understands what "valuable" means and am logical about it in this context. It's a rather subjective matter, but we're not trying to fight a war or better humanity in playing this game. They're playing an MMORPG, a genre of game that you CANNOT CONTROL THE TIME SPENT TO DO SOMETHING. You can try to push it in a certain way to be as quick as possible, but things can happen to interfere with that. Hence why I said that if it is indeed exceptionally valuable to an individual, and they unreasonably complain about this uncontrollable variable of time, they're probably not the brightest. People need to get away from RL, away from the stresses of it, but they still have to consider certain things related to how they use their free time. Otherwise, you're just building up that stress, except from a virtual life rather than a real one. Again, it's called "free time" for a reason. Chances are, you're not gonna be curing diseases or doing something useful to your everyday life when you play this game (as opposed to spending this time doing something else for your source of entertainment).

[Seig345]

Trolls that obvious gets vote kicked by the party. And this just a strawman made to look like a supposed "bad" player. This completely bogus. Other than trolls, I've never seen a player deliberately screwing things up.

The point of my post wasn't a literal example, but rather how that "I play how I want" mentality comes through. I'd say I'm well within my comfort zone as a Whm, and when I tried tanking, I'd see Healers that would constantly cast Aero on everything in range while the rest of the group was still busy on another group of enemies, and when they get aggro, they run around in circles or flat out -away- from me instead of bringing it to me, making me work harder to pull their unnecessary aggros off of them (and insist running around is 'safer'), and of course the ones that insist on using the Fluid Aura spell to shove the target I'm tanking/the melee DPS are whaling on away from us the moment the spell's cooldown is up.

THOSE are all literal examples of things I've seen from just bad healers. The strawman is claiming that ONLY trolls play like that. I've never, ever chewed anyone out in any way, shape, or form. I offer advice, and if they insist on face-planting and spitting in my face like my polite suggestion was some kind of insult to their mother, I just leave.

[Dels]

The thing these players don't realize is, if all 4 players in the party were playing like them, then they would never be able to clear the dungeon. THAT is what makes their playstyle wrong, and why they shouldn't be allowed to play like that.

[Foo01]

...
Willingly choosing to ignore or not listen to advice to improve to help the group as a whole, is deliberately "screwing" things up. Period. They choose not to try and improve, or they choose to ignore the advice and such. The reason doesn't actually matter. If they are pulling the party down, after advice is given, they are doing it willingly.
...

Trolls are different problem. The new player is not a troll. The unexperienced player is not troll. Player that are non-communicative and unable to do the role, vote kick it here for a reason. There is no need be calling players "BAD" for being more laid back and not playing up elitist standards. Somehow the elitist lump everyone else of the other 99% together can call them bad just so they can think that they are special snowflakes or something.

The new player that doesn't know what to do, isn't going insist on doing anything in any particular way. As long as you are not insulting them or rushing them, they will gladly learn to work with the team. If your troll detector is broken, and can't separate the two, then the problems you have are with the trolls. Trolls will insist on doing their shitck just to get a rise out you and they will pretend to be noobs to confuse you. Since there is no open world PvP this is the closest to griefing they can do and they enjoy doing it. Just kick the trolls out.