Thief/Assassin/Rogue/Ninja Class

[YanderePrincess]

Exact strikes: Increases Crit% by 60% for 15 seconds. (Cooldown: 85 Seconds)

Are you serious?

You think this is remotely balanced/appropriate how?

[Dixon]

So change the %. This is not a change to the actual damage, but the chance of crit.

[LadyVaJedi]

That or put ninja under pug. Then do a class call Rouge and place thief as the job.

[Dixon]

I think the dagger class may start as Thief or Rogue, with some melee-based abilities like steal MP/HP, along with a number of debuffs/DOTs, and can graduate into either:

Ninja:

Water Ball- Deals bludgeoning water damage with a potency of 170, Adds Silence for 3 seconds (Ranged, up to 30 yalms. Cooldown: 40 seconds)
Fire blade- Deals piercing/fire damage with a potency of 40, Continual Fire damage with a potency of 20 for 22 seconds. (Raged, up to 30 yalms. Cooldown: 3 seconds)
Shuriken- Deals unaspected slashing damage to target with a potency of 150, Reduces DEX and MND for 15 seconds (Ranged, up to 30 yalms. Cooldown: 85 seconds)
Shadow State- Become invisible for 8 seconds and lose all enmity, attacking or getting damaged by AOE will end invisibility, next successful attack will deal an additional 20% damage (This ends auto-attack until invisibility ends. Cooldown: 200 Seconds)

[Exstal]

Or take the traditional Final Fantasy approach and do Thief => Ninja

[Atreides]

Or take the traditional Final Fantasy approach and do Thief => Ninja

Thats not a Traditional approach, I can only think of one FF in the series where a Thief would turn into a Ninja.

[Kitru]

Thats not a Traditional approach, I can only think of one FF in the series where a Thief would turn into a Ninja.

That's mainly because there aren't direct class/job upgrades in most FFs. The upgrades are indirect in order to prevent turning any given job absolutely obsolete. With only a single exception (FFVI; Shadow and Locke), in every instance of an FF with both thief and ninja, the ninja either requires levels in thief (the Tactics games) and acts as an upgrade (similar stats but better) or shares a similar stat distribution that is simply better (thief is fast, evasive, and hits reasonably hard; ninja is faster, hard to hit, more durable, and hits harder).

The only reason that ninja is an explicit upgrade to thief in only 1 game is because, in that game (the first game), once you get ninja, you can no longer access thief. Because you still have access to said class, there should still be some reason for you to use said class (which is also why you see no significant ability overlap; there is some spell overlap, but only in cases where the categories are meant to have specific value: red mage overlaps with both white mage and black mage but renders neither redundant by not being able to access higher level spells; summoner has spells that are significantly stronger than black mage spells but does not render black mage redundant thanks to high mp costs preventing the same prevalence of use).

Furthermore, thief and ninja fulfill both the same niche (rapid stealthy attacker using light weapons) while using what amount to the same weapons (ninja blades are effectively upgraded daggers restricted only to ninja).

The only way that we're going to get both thief and ninja (in recognizable forms) is if thief is the class and ninja is the job. We're not going to get 2 classes because they would be too similar, and we're not going to be getting them as 2 jobs off of the same class because they're both DPS jobs (and the 5 abilities you get from a job are not sufficient to significantly distinguish the gameplay of one from the other; you'd end up with 2 jobs that are 95% the same, which basically renders one redundant and, as such, developmentally inefficient).

[Insidious]

I really miss sneak attack trick attack. Why can't we have some of those old fun abilities put in?

[MartaDemireux]

I said this in a thread a little while ago and still stand by it:

I could see both Thief and Ninja coming from the same class, like others said likely Rogue or Scout.

I would put my gil on saying Ninja will be a DPS utilizing water magic (staple in the series), some sort of ranged attack via Throw (another staple, Thancred also showed us this ability), a poison or a blind (ninjas would do that IRL), the electrifying AoE attack (Yugiri showed us) and perhaps a buff/stance that added or enhanced a mechanic to their attacks. They would probably focus on attacking from behind for higher potency or combos like in the 2.2 cutscenes.

Thief could function as either a support DPS like Bard or perhaps even more likely as a tank. If someone steals from you, you don't like them. That would be a good theme to make them a tank. They could steal enmity from others and perhaps steal an enemy's energy for "charges" to use with other abilities. They could also charm and attract the monsters attention. On the other hand they could be a support DPS by stealing enmity from one player and putting it on another. They could focus on big burst damage like Dragoon. I could see them also stealing buffs and perhaps making use of them. Maybe a mechanic where they dispel a buff but if they do it a certain way, like from behind, they can get the exact buff for a short amount of time. Or, perhaps it activates other abilities or changes the effects of some abilities. They could potentially also steal a target's TP for their own use.

For the base class I would expect there to be an ability that is similar to DoL's stealth but with a short duration and for there to be attacks that capitalize on this ability to deal extra damage or even negate enmity generated. Both Thieves and Ninjas like to operate in the shadows and both had ways to make themselves invisible in XI.

As far as Thief as a class leading into Ninja: I greatly disagree. As we have seen from current classes not one of them shares a name with a traditional FF job. I expect that to continue. It was only in FF1 where Thief upgraded directly into Ninja and if we go by those standards then Warrior would have gone into Paladin. Thief in the rest of the series has always had a separate identity from Ninja when they appeared together. Thief has also varied quite a bit depending on the game much like Scholar did so this is a great place to give it another identity of its own in a similar fashion.

Examples of THF's variance:
FFI: Can escape from battles.
FFIII: Can now steal.
FFV: Can now mug (attack while stealing), boost movement speed and detect hidden passages.
FFX-2: Can now steal MP, HP, inflict Berserk and Stop status effects and force the enemy to run.
FFXI: Can now transfer enmity of own attacks to another player, steal enmity from other players, steal buffs from enemies, inflict Terror and focuses on quick critical multi-hits.
FFT: Can now steal a units equipment and EXP as well as inflict Charm.
FFTA: Can now counter attacks, steal abilities directly from the enemy for use and prevent the theft and damage of your own equipment.
FFTA2: Same as FFTA but with the ability to steal the units Smash Gauge, a new battle mechanic.
FF4HoL: Can now steal from multiple enemies at once and gains an instant death ability.
BDFF: Can now convert their speed into an attack that ignores defense and recovers it's own HP when stealing an item.

So with that variance I could most certainly see a tank coming in the form of Thief in FFXIV. Throughout its history it's always had a focus of stealing but always had something different. A combination of HP/TP stealing, Terror/Stop (could function as Stun here), AoE stealing (for enmity), Berserk/Charm (could function as a provoke), countering attacks, stealing a party member's enmity and burst damage could make for an interesting tank. Evasion tanking is tough to balance though but it could potentially be done with a stance that allows the build of charges gained with stealing actions to either mitigate damage or evade it.

Essentially what I expect:

Rogue/Scout (DPS):
Stealth/Hide (PvP: blocked out or have very short duration)
Attacks focus on hitting from behind. Fast, critical hitter.
Buffs to evasion.
Steal & Swipe but won't steal items. Perhaps used in mechanic for other abilities or temporary potions. Only usable while in stealth.
Accomplice - equalize the enmity of you and another player.
Flee - increased movement speed, stacks with sprint but not with Swiftsong.

Ninja (DPS):
30: Throw - Ranged attack.
35: Blitz - AoE lightning damage.
40: Water Veil - Ranged water damage and silence.
45: Smoke Bomb - Ranged damage and Blind.
50: Mirage/Utsusemi - Buff that allows your back attack bonuses to be applied at any direction. Allows short duration of stealth while in combat. Bonus damage while in stealth.

Thief (Tank):
30: Vigilance: Tank enmity/mitigation stance. Allows counter-attacks. Changes some class abilities to generate enmity. Adds a mechanic to theft type abilities and can be used while not in stealth. Steal upgrades to Mug, Swipe to Pillage for increased enmity and added damage. Accomplice takes some of the other players enmity and adds it to your own etc.
35: Life Steal/Pilfer HP: Steals HP from target. High enmity.
40: Detect: Anticipates attacks for reduced/nullified damage.
45: Larceny: Steal an active buff from target. If no buff steals TP and deals critical damage. High enmity.
50: Perfect Dodge: Long cooldown 100% mitigation.

Thief varied a lot in other games so it can be changed significantly in this one like they did with Scholar.

[Kitru]

Thief varied a lot in other games so it can be changed significantly in this one like they did with Scholar.

The thief archetype hasn't really changed all that much across any game. They're always fast, high damage fighters with moderate survivability derived largely from evasion and some degree of stealth or other type of combat avoidance mechanism. You're basically creating an entirely different from what the actual archetype of thief (and is, honestly, antithetical to thief: you're making them explicitly insist upon being looked at *which makes no sense whatsoever*).

There is only one line of thought that would lead you to turn thief into a tank, predicated upon 2 central conceits: the knowledge that the devs are damned well not going to let NIN be a tank, and absolute insistence that THF be implemented as a job instead of a class.

Thief makes absolutely *no* sense as a tank. Thief has *never* been a durable class and has actually excelled at *getting out of combat*. NIN has actually been tankier because it's had higher hp and better evasion so acting as if, because NIN isn't going to be a tank, it makes sense for THF to be a tank makes absolutely no sense. It's absolutely ludicrous for THF to be a tank, even moreso than NIN.

I have said it time and time and time again: we're going to get either THF or NIN as a job, and the only way we're going to get both THF and NIN in game is if THF is the base class for NIN. Any other possible implementation is either redundant (2 diff classes, 2 jobs of the same role off of the same class) or completely absurd (either one being something other than a DPS).